RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:47:24 PM)

Why haven't we seen this empirical data?  Is this a derivitive of studying foreskin removal and honor killings?




Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:49:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Panic, vomiting, anger fear terror, bleeding, bruising loosening of the body functions, , crying screaming, hate, self survival, severe shock. Why?? are you going to suggest orgasm?
Oh maybe should we go into the mental responses?
I didn't suggest anything, you have a link to that study?


what study?




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:49:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


His sons (or daughters) had to successfully reproduce for him to be considered successful. Remember BIO 101?


Uh, his sons and daughters were clearly successful or 8% of the male Eurasian population wouldn't be related to him - did we both read the same article? Remember Dick and Jane?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for the lemons out of lemonade statement, women frequently decide to mate with whoever controls the most resources. This is the reproductive strategy that they use in order to maximize the success of their own DNA.

Frequently, although frequently their choices are constrained - in this case the dating pool was cut way down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
During that era of human history in Europe and Asia, Women were considered to be property. They did as they were told and were frequently used as political bargaining chips. They didn't call him but their fathers did frequently. Think "Gor".
I guess your only point can be that he didn't rape all of them, some were sent by their fathers as tribute or gifts, which is of course, very different. [8|]





xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Panic, vomiting, anger fear terror, bleeding, bruising loosening of the body functions, , crying screaming, hate, self survival, severe shock. Why?? are you going to suggest orgasm?
Oh maybe should we go into the mental responses?
I didn't suggest anything, you have a link to that study?


what study?
Exactly.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:52:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Why haven't we seen this empirical data?  Is this a derivitive of studying foreskin removal and honor killings?
Probably because you haven't looked for it, and no, and maybe, respectively.




Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:52:38 PM)

oh so you only accept studies?
typical




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:56:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

oh so you only accept studies?
typical
So you only accept shit that's made up? Typical.

Here's one for you, although I didn't make it up: the Huns were reputedly very big on rape, the story goes that if there weren't enough holes, they pulled out their knives and made new ones.




Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:58:25 PM)

Shit thats made up? whats made up?




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:02:51 PM)

If you're talking personal experience I'll buy it, but it's not a large enough sample to draw a statistical conclusion.




mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:03:29 PM)

Oh, I think you are assimilating arguements not in evidence and then inferring rather nonsensical ideas into them.

What I approve of as a Gorean is not what we are discussing in terms of rape.

Slave rape is a different animal, in fact there was a thread on it in the Gorean Forum not to long ago.  (you see one of the biggies on this one, in this world, she would have to agree to be my slave first, and that is more than empirical conclusion, that is fact).

So, she knows it may or may not come, at my whim, and she has to agree (by inferrence) to that and many other things,  way before I start ripping off her clothes, (or if I really like them (not usually) having her disrobe, and saved for later).

The PhD is not in philosophy either, and you can quote me.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:09:29 PM)

I would think it would be very relevant w/regard to Tweaks theory of social permissions, which as I have said, has more than a small amount of merit, I only attempted to point out that there my be a biological synergy at work there as well.

I don't keep up on the current state of Gorean dogma, but I've gotten that "real men just take it" vibe on more than one occasion.




Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:12:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

If you're talking personal experience I'll buy it, but it's not a large enough sample to draw a statistical conclusion.

I never claimed it was a sample, or could be made into a study.
What about mutilations, cutting off nipples, sticking knives, bottles, sticks, broom handles, cutting off lips, slashing of the vaginal areaetc etc etc, just because its not in a study does NOT make it "shit thats made up".
PTSD is not uncommon to a woman who has been raped,
What about women who die at the hands of their rapists, how many murdered women are raped, or even attempted rape where the guy cant orgasm or even get hard to penetrate*hence the anger and violence* thats not a very successful rape strategy(procreation) is it.




Edwynn -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:13:51 PM)


On the issue of the Huns (and other invaders) allegedly 'using rape as a successful reproduction strategy', a few points.

Firstly, the Huns did not invade and conquer territory with much of any strategy in mind other than conquest for its own sake. Rape was just the other side of the coin of slaughtering most of the males; that is, for purpose of making the strongest statement possible of the absoluteness of their conquest. In any case most conquests involve more rape in the first rush of invasion. Historically, no conquest I am aware of, not even the Huns, continues the practice of raping en masse generation after generation after the initial invasion. If they or any other invaders had considered it to be a successful reproduction strategy they would not have desisted from it after one or two generations. In these cases rape is not a strategy unto itself, it is a 'natural' byproduct of the conquest, just one of several sorts of violence endemic in the process.

The Roman soldiers who raped Boudica's daughters certainly had no reproductive intent in mind whatsoever, much less any reproductive strategy. It was intended as the strongest possible "because we can" statement of disrespect to the Queen herself and to the whole Iceni people to rape the daughters, an even stronger statement than that of raping the Queen herself would have been.

Even if we were (for whatever reason) to refer to one or several births and subsequent survival to adulthood as product of rape as being 'successful' in that crudest of meaning, I still can't see from anything either in nature or from human history where rape has ever displayed itself as what could properly be called an actual strategy of any sort, which then renders the question of whether it could be considered successful or not to be moot.

















xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:14:40 PM)

And personally, sine you seem to want to press me on the point, I think it's being unnecessarily charitable to call it "philosophy", or suggest that getting a PhD in it would be anything other than an egregious waste of time and energy.

Better off studying Frank Herbert if you ask me, it's more than wank fodder anyway, but to each his, or her own.




mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:19:52 PM)

I am unsure of why you don't address me directly, and what Frank Hebert has to do with women in the military being raped.





xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:30:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


On the issue of the Huns (and other invaders) allegedly 'using rape as a successful reproduction' strategy, a few points.

Firstly, the Huns did not invade and conquer territory with much of any strategy in mind other than conquest for its own sake. Rape was just the other side of the coin of slaughtering most of the males; that is, for purpose of making the strongest statement possible of the absoluteness of their conquest. In any case most conquests involve more rape in the first rush of invasion. Historically, no conquest I am aware of, not even the Huns, continues the practice of raping en masse generation after generation after the initial invasion. If they or any other invaders had considered it to be a successful reproduction strategy they would not have desisted from it after one or two generations. In these cases rape is not a strategy unto itself, it is a 'natural' byproduct of the conquest, just one of several sorts of violence endemic in the process.

The Roman soldiers who raped Boudica's daughters certainly had no reproductive intent in mind whatsoever, much less any reproductive strategy. It was intended as the strongest possible "because we can" statement of disrespect to the Queen herself and to the whole Iceni people to rape the daughters, an even stronger statement than that of raping the Queen herself would have been.

Even if we were (for whatever reason) to refer to one or several births and subsequent survival to adulthood as product of rape as being 'successful' in that crudest of meaning, I still can't see from anything either in nature or from human history where rape has ever displayed itself as what could properly called an actual strategy of any sort, which then renders the question of whether it could be considered successful or not to be moot.

It is endemic to war in general, modern warfare is no exception, Japanese American children were discriminate against after WWII, they cannot have all been the result of consensual sex, and that pattern is repeated in every other conquest going back to, as I say, the Bible: kill the adult males, impregnate the women, in that case explicitly - it is also a territorial strategy. Ever read Candide? It's practically a cliché, rape and pillage, like beer and potato chips.

And, you are probably using strategy in the military sense, rather than the biological one, it's a subspecies of r strategy, and it need not be noetic in order to be a called strategy, it merely has to work some of the time.

Is it also a display of dominance? An act of terror? Why not? Being the one doesn't mean it isn't the other, it's the selfish gene doing what it does.

You are all quite welcome to characterize it as deplorable, I won't argue with that, I am merely establishing it's existence.




xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:33:10 PM)

Do you know who I'm talking to? What does any of this have to do with women in the military being raped? I think we've been here before, couple of pages back.




mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:37:04 PM)

Two inert gases will bond, say one molecule bond per a gazillion bazillion quadtrillion molecules,  we want to establish that as well.  It is not anything that we need to waste a post over, let alone several pages of derail. 




Edwynn -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:39:44 PM)



Again, the rape concomitant with invasions is not a reproductive strategy and never was, at most it was part of the strategy of conquest, though at least as many times or more rather just the inevitable result, certainly nothing that needed a plan or a strategy on its own. And never was rape itself or even any putative reproduction strategy the impetus to conquest.

Also, genes, reproduction, etc. are always 'just along for the ride' within the host or the population and necessarily follow and are subjected to whatever circumstances thereby. It could be said that the reproductive process is capable of success in surviving a great amount of error, misdirection, and outright folly on the part of the host, yes. But this is because overall genetic strategy and reproductive strategy within that can survive a period of rape, along with a multitude of other anomalies, not because any of these anomalies are themselves a 'strategy'; they are not strategies, they are anomalies.








xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 2:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

If you're talking personal experience I'll buy it, but it's not a large enough sample to draw a statistical conclusion.

I never claimed it was a sample, or could be made into a study.
What about mutilations, cutting off nipples, sticking knives, bottles, sticks, broom handles, cutting off lips, slashing of the vaginal areaetc etc etc, just because its not in a study does NOT make it "shit thats made up".
PTSD is not uncommon to a woman who has been raped,
What about women who die at the hands of their rapists, how many murdered women are raped, or even attempted rape where the guy cant orgasm or even get hard to penetrate*hence the anger and violence* thats not a very successful rape strategy(procreation) is it.

Well if you want to talk about man's inhumanity to man in general, it's going to be a very long thread, all kinds of people trying to solve that one for centuries, it would have been hard 40 years ago to get a lot of people to even call this a problem.

Ok, it's not a very successful strategy, I can concede that, certainly less successful in the contemporary Western World than it has perhaps been in times past - that's progress, no?

It might be considerably more successful in the Sudan or South Africa at the moment, but we're talking about women in the US military if I'm not mistaken.

Time can only tell how successful your plan to sterilize all men was, that's for future generations of CMr's to debate.




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