RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?'

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:34:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: This would be much easier if you just concede the point and we can continue considering what to do about it - Taz want's to sterilize all the men, Tweak wants us all to be nice, I guess - you have any ideas? I still think sterilzation for men is the answer. No more unwanted babies. No more inability to afford babies. No more abortions. No more worries of the complication of pregnancy related to rape. No more paternity tests. No more unwillingness to pay child support. Best of all solutions. And everyone can fuck like rabbits! Someone suggested, earlier, (can't remember if it was you or not), something along the lines of a great big sperm bank to which young men could go, wank themselves into a stupor with some 'stimulating reading material', leave the results to be frozen, then get their own tubes tied (or however that works with men). Thereafter they could go from one woman to another, willy-nilly, so to speak, without fear that they might inadvertently leaving one of said females with a bun in the oven. This actually doesn't seem like too silly an idea. You finally find the woman you want to mother your brats, she actually wants said brats; so, you just pop back to the tadpole store, pick up a lump of your frozen man-juice, and duly whop it up her vadge (maybe after a suitably romantic candlelit dinner, bloke in tux with single red rose, and stuff). Very neat, very orderly, very civilised. Actually, they probably already do it that way in Scandinavia. Perhaps Aswad's contribution on the subject would be useful here (no pun intended). As much as it was a jest at first, the idea does have its merits. Its more easily reversible for men, down time is minimal, cost wise its cheaper, and the risks are substantially less.

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:35:41 PM)
But that makes your definition surrealistic fallacy. It would require that the require that the rapist maintains some shadowing contact (at the very least) of the victim for a long period of time to insure there is a birth..... cuz it isn't gonna happen that he shoots a wad in her once in some alley and say, "There, by god, I fucked the living shit outta that bitch, and she is pregnant as hell and gonna have my baby, and I am Abrham, father of a nation". I don't need a study to figure out a rock is a rock, or that is absurd and silly. If such a thing were true, we would be dealing in those cases with incest and captivity, in which case your numbers are in the area I quoted you ....... .00000000000000000001%. But again, very few of any of those are in the military, or veterans, and not one of them has been to west point. Or went on a fuckin talk show, not even Jerry Springer.

PeonForHer -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:43:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As much as it was a jest at first, the idea does have its merits. Its more easily reversible for men, down time is minimal, cost wise its cheaper, and the risks are substantially less. From what I've heard: agreed about those points. However, I've also heard that many men can get a little screwed up as a result. They can find it difficult to achieve wood. At the same time, their female partners can feel as though 'something is missing', or so I've heard. But I should imagine that these aren't insurmountable problems. I think it'd take a thoroughgoing understanding and consciousness of the fact that humans have sex primarily for enjoyment's sake rather than any reason that occupies geneticists or biologists in general.

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:45:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As much as it was a jest at first, the idea does have its merits. Its more easily reversible for men, down time is minimal, cost wise its cheaper, and the risks are substantially less. From what I've heard: agreed about those points. However, I've also heard that many men can get a little screwed up as a result. They can find it difficult to achieve wood. At the same time, their female partners can feel as though 'something is missing', or so I've heard. But I should imagine that these aren't insurmountable problems. I think it'd take a thoroughgoing understanding and consciousness of the fact that humans have sex primarily for enjoyment's sake rather than any reason that occupies geneticists or biologists in general. And women can die getting a tubal. Complications on both sides are rare, but real.

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:49:31 PM)
Some other issues would be solved too, and has worked for me. If I am cut and you end up pregnant............

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:50:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Some other issues would be solved too, and has worked for me. If I am cut and you end up pregnant............ Exactly. Answers a whole multitude of problems.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Insisting your argument is not based on naturalistic fallacy, and compounding it with further irrelevant argument doesn't mean it isn't and will always remain, a naturalistic fallacy. Again, it's not a comparison, if you want to make it a comparison, you have to qualify it as "more successful" or "less successful" which I took the time to do on more than one occasion. It's more successful than somebody who doesn't pass their genes on at all. You cannot prove me wrong, it was a hugely successful strategy for Genghis Khan, that's the only example I need to prove the point, although there are others - all you can do is quibble semantics or move the fuck on, it's over. As for only needing one example to prove a point, you and I both know that is bullshit and you're grasping at straws. That's like saying I handled rattlesnakes to show my faith and I lived, therrefore it's a good strategy to show faith. There is no naturalistic fallacy. If you replace yourself, your DNA succeeds. If you don't replace yourself, your DNA fails. Now you're reduced to claiming that the strategy is 'more successful' than someone who dies as a neonate. Reproductive strategies that do not replace the organism are not successful. It's not more or less, it's pass/fail. You use Ghengis Khan as an example. That is one person out of the billions who have inhabited the planet he didnt have to be a rapist (his soldiers is another story). He had the finest women from the conquered territories lining up to be in his harem. Many of the rulers that were in his way simply offered a daughter as a bride and swore obesiance. As for human reproductive strategy, I stated previously that Khan is irrelevant as human reproductive behavior was hardwired tens of thousands of years before he existed. I'm guessing you used this or something similar http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html as your reference there. Note: The article says nothing about Khan himself raping anyone only that he (and his sons) had huge harems. Kublai was said to have added 30 virgins to his harem every year. This would be an explanation for the fact that a certain allele on the y chromosome is much more common in his old empire than in the world at large. It is widely hypothesized that he is the source either directly of via his sons. Until someone finds his grave and is able to extract DNA, it will be impossible to determine is he is the source of this allele.

PeonForHer -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 12:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Some other issues would be solved too, and has worked for me. If I am cut and you end up pregnant............ Agreed. A hundred lashings, woman thrown out into the wilderness to starve and be eaten by jackals as the godless harlot that she is. It probably says that somewhere in the Bible, so by definition it must be the good, moral and upright thing to do.

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:03:36 PM)
Well she ain't gotta do all that to get all that, she just has to say, "would you wait a minute, I am brushing my teeth", when I am after a blowjob.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail But that makes your definition surrealistic fallacy. It would require that the require that the rapist maintains some shadowing contact (at the very least) of the victim for a long period of time to insure there is a birth..... cuz it isn't gonna happen that he shoots a wad in her once in some alley and say, "There, by god, I fucked the living shit outta that bitch, and she is pregnant as hell and gonna have my baby, and I am Abrham, father of a nation". I don't need a study to figure out a rock is a rock, or that is absurd and silly. If such a thing were true, we would be dealing in those cases with incest and captivity, in which case your numbers are in the area I quoted you ....... .00000000000000000001%. But again, very few of any of those are in the military, or veterans, and not one of them has been to west point. Or went on a fuckin talk show, not even Jerry Springer. No, none of that is necessary, it's only necessary that she become pregnant, in fact that isn't even necessary to call it a strategy if it does happen with any statistical frequency, and it does. Stalking victims before rape occurs is quite common. And since you insist on making numbers up: quote: In 2004-2005, 64,080 women were raped.8 According to medical reports, the incidence of pregnancy for one-time unprotected sexual intercourse is 5%. By applying the pregnancy rate to 64,080 women, RAINN estimates that there were 3,204 pregnancies as a result of rape during that period. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims quote: The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator. Only 11.7% of these victims received immediate medical attention after the assault, and 47.1% received no medical attention related to the rape. A total 32.4% of these victims did not discover they were pregnant until they had already entered the second trimester; 32.2% opted to keep the infant whereas 50% underwent abortion and 5.9% placed the infant for adoption; an additional 11.8% had spontaneous abortion. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248 Both estimates, both put it at around 5%, but to be even handed, Christian Life Resources uses some seat of the pants statistical wrangling, including cutting date rape and only considering forcible rape, to cut that figure way down: quote: [LEFT] [/LEFT][LEFT]One final thought, Sandra Mahkorn, in two excellent studies, has asked such women what was their chief complaint? One might fully assume it was the fact that she was pregnant, but that is incorrect. Her chief complaint was how other people treated her. Such treatment ranged from negative, to simply getting little support from those around her. Even in a culture that offers little support and aggressively pushes abortion as a solution, fewer that half of such babies are killed by abortion. Think of how many fewer yet there would be if each pregnant victim of a rape were given the support, aid and tender loving care that she and her baby deserve. [/LEFT] http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/rape-pregnancies-are-rare-461 I thought the last paragraph was notable, i.e., it's always the woman's fault, if she stayed barefoot by the sink it wouldn't have happened. Oh wait: quote: Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator. I assume those are clinical cases, I cannot find a number for clinically confirmed cases, only estimates.

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:11:20 PM)
Well, thats my point, for any of this surrealistic fallacy of yours to be valid or significant, the rapist has got to KNOW (not fuckin guess, not fuckin fantasize) that she is pregnant and it is HIS. So, whatever reason its back at the same place, not a number worth discussion, and certainly not statistically significant to even a .0000000000000000001% degree of confidence. When we get there, it is the incest and lockup in the backyard or basement routine, and that is not for the exact reasons, nor for even casually associated to the reasons that you have buncombed out here. Procreation and rape is as causally linked as foreskins and ritual honor killing of females. That right, dude, it is that statistically significant.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:12:47 PM)
quote: Note: The article says nothing about Khan himself raping anyone only that he (and his sons) had huge harems. Kublai was said to have added 30 virgins to his harem every year. This would be an explanation for the fact that a certain allele on the y chromosome is much more common in his old empire than in the world at large. It is widely hypothesized that he is the source either directly of via his sons. Until someone finds his grave and is able to extract DNA, it will be impossible to determine is he is the source of this allele. quote: Khan's eldest son, Tushi, is reported to have had 40 sons. Documents written during or just after Khan's reign say that after a conquest, looting, pillaging, and rape were the spoils of war for all soldiers, but that Khan got first pick of the beautiful women. His grandson, Kubilai Khan, who established the Yuan Dynasty in China, had 22 legitimate sons, and was reported to have added 30 virgins to his harem each year. Him, his sons, what does it matter? It works out the same either way - the point is, they didn't call him, he called them. You're getting dangerously close to saying that if a woman decides to make lemonades out of lemons, it isn't rape. What exactly is the female biological response to rape, BTW, any idea?

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:15:10 PM)
generally painful intercourse, if he penetrates; including vaginal area briusing and chafing. Sorta like the guy in prison thats wearing the bows in his hair and the pinafore to the saturday night prom in the common area, and dating Jesse, and his big white friend Beh'nah'd. Niether one really wants to go to the dance.

Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:28:17 PM)
Panic, vomiting, anger fear terror, bleeding, bruising loosening of the body functions, , crying screaming, hate, self survival, severe shock. Why?? are you going to suggest orgasm? Oh maybe should we go into the mental responses?

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:29:18 PM)
No, I was looking for empirical data, not you reminiscences of your prom night.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:30:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Panic, vomiting, anger fear terror, bleeding, bruising loosening of the body functions, , crying screaming, hate, self survival, severe shock. Why?? are you going to suggest orgasm? Oh maybe should we go into the mental responses? I didn't suggest anything, you have a link to that study?

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:31:46 PM)
Since you have no empirical data proffered here, why would you think it proper to solicit it from others?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:37:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: Note: The article says nothing about Khan himself raping anyone only that he (and his sons) had huge harems. Kublai was said to have added 30 virgins to his harem every year. This would be an explanation for the fact that a certain allele on the y chromosome is much more common in his old empire than in the world at large. It is widely hypothesized that he is the source either directly of via his sons. Until someone finds his grave and is able to extract DNA, it will be impossible to determine is he is the source of this allele. quote: Khan's eldest son, Tushi, is reported to have had 40 sons. Documents written during or just after Khan's reign say that after a conquest, looting, pillaging, and rape were the spoils of war for all soldiers, but that Khan got first pick of the beautiful women. His grandson, Kubilai Khan, who established the Yuan Dynasty in China, had 22 legitimate sons, and was reported to have added 30 virgins to his harem each year. Him, his sons, what does it matter? It works out the same either way - the point is, they didn't call him, he called them. You're getting dangerously close to saying that if a woman decides to make lemonades out of lemons, it isn't rape. What exactly is the female biological response to rape, BTW, any idea? His sons (or daughters) had to successfully reproduce for him to be considered successful. Remember BIO 101? As for the lemons out of lemonade statement, women frequently decide to mate with whoever controls the most resources. This is the reproductive strategy that they use in order to maximize the success of their own DNA. During that era of human history in Europe and Asia, Women were considered to be property. They did as they were told and were frequently used as political bargaining chips. They didn't call him but their fathers did frequently. Think "Gor".

mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:39:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Go google "rape in the bible" - they have freaking rules about who you can rape and when for fucks sake, Genghis Khan is not an isolated incident. Perhaps the rulebook has been updated since the Meiji period.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 1:41:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Since you have no empirical data proffered here, why would you think it proper to solicit it from others? I have empirical data, let's just say the results are mixed - just curious to see if the experts have the same data, re: HW's roundabout implication that if she doesn't object or even enjoys it, it isn't rape. He may not have said that outright, but that's the only place that argument can lead. Of course as a Gorean, you should approve.

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