RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?'

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tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:48:51 PM)
lol.... and I have been on point. Khan was considered a military genius/bully. He is the example given for the indication that rape is a viable option for successful reproduction. The basis of that is his gene pool within the region. My argument against this as a reason is that if you remove enough of any other potential gene pool, you will end up a very selective gene pool. Khan proves nothing more than violence can restrict the gene pool offering... like we didnt already know that. Hard to have kids, back then, when you were already dead.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:51:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Remove all other genes from the gene pool and what is left? Khan didnt populate the area with his genes, he commited genocide of any other potential gene pools. 20 men and 20 women... a diverse gene pool, initially. Cut that to one man and 20 women.... your point becomes moot. Except he didn't always kill all the men, that would have been diseconomic when his explicit goal was exacting tribute - a town refused to surrender unconditionally, or failed to pay tribute, he leveled it, that assured the next town would be highly unlikely to repeat the mistake. Cromwell used mush the same tactics during the English civil wars, any town that failed to surrender immediately and unconditionally was put to the sword, no quarter even if they changed their minds and surrendered this was considered to be expedient because of the toll of protracted siege, the dangers of disease, and the reduction of the countryside to support the siege made it costly to both sides. Don't know about rape, the new model army was supposed to be a professional fighting force, rather than the usual motley collection of brigands, bullies, mercenaries and adventurers, I'm pretty sure he didn't condone it - he had fewer scruples when it came to the Irish, not sure how that went. Anyway, still doesn't matter, if the town surrendered immediately and unconditionally to the Khan, they would merely forgo the killing, the raping and looting was axiomatic, very difficult to tell a horde of mongols that have been on the road for weeks or months they can't rape or loot, there would have been mutiny, and long as there's raping and looting, why not take first pick? That too would solidify his status.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:56:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum "I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect? These people are in close contact, the whole airing of this issue has never been done by Congress, it's strictly been a question of pressure from the feminists." - Liz Trotta http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/13/fox-news-liz-trotta-rape_n_1274018.html#s692553 I really have no words for this one. NONE. Let's see here now....(not discussing rape....just men and wimmens in war). Lemme think now....you put 10 women in an environment where there are 1,800 men.....away from wimmens (except for those 10). You're gonna have 180 to 1 competing for those chics....and they could be UGLY as fuck.... Clue store is open.....they're discounting....tonight only.

SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 6:57:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Hard to have kids, back then, when you were already dead. OK, I'm not a doctor, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it is still hard to have kids when you are dead.

SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:03:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: MissAsylum "I think they have actually discovered there is a difference between men and women. And the sexual abuse report says that there has been, since 2006, a 64% increase in violent sexual assaults. Now, what did they expect? These people are in close contact, the whole airing of this issue has never been done by Congress, it's strictly been a question of pressure from the feminists." - Liz Trotta http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/13/fox-news-liz-trotta-rape_n_1274018.html#s692553 I really have no words for this one. NONE. Let's see here now....(not discussing rape....just men and wimmens in war). Lemme think now....you put 10 women in an environment where there are 1,800 men.....away from wimmens (except for those 10). You're gonna have 180 to 1 competing for those chics....and they could be UGLY as fuck.... Clue store is open.....they're discounting....tonight only. Donno where you get 180-1, maybe 8 to 1 in certain areas, but a lot less in others. Generally violence wasn't needed to find a partner. Paying for it would get you in a lot of trouble, not that it stopped folks. Using force, if reported, would be an instant out. Heck, guys got kicked for voluntary stuff, and for fighting over women... Women got kicked for voluntary stuff too, though what possessed them to do it on the beach...

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:05:35 PM)
These included raids or invasions of the Kara-Khitan Khanate, Caucasus, Khwarezmid Empire, Western Xia and Jin dynasties. These campaigns were often accompanied by wholesale massacres of the civilian populations – especially in Khwarezmia. In the Middle East and Iran, he is almost universally looked on as a destructive and genocidal warlord who caused enormous damage and destruction to the population of these areas. Steven R. Ward wrote that "Overall, the Mongol violence and depredations killed up to three-fourths of the population of the Iranian Plateau, possibly 10 to 15 million people. Some historians have estimated that Iran's population did not again reach its pre-Mongol levels until the mid-20th century." Giovanni de Plano Carpini, the Pope's envoy to the Mongol Great Khan, traveled through Kiev in February 1246 and wrote: "They [the Mongols] attacked Rus, where they made great havoc, destroying cities and fortresses and slaughtering men; and they laid siege to Kiev, the capital of Rus; after they had besieged the city for a long time, they took it and put the inhabitants to death. When we were journeying through that land we came across countless skulls and bones of dead men lying about on the ground. Kiev had been a very large and heavily populated town, but now it has been reduced almost to nothing, for there are at the present time scarce two hundred houses there and the inhabitants are kept in complete slavery." As usual, the artisans were sent back to Mongolia, young women and children were given to the Mongol soldiers as slaves, and the rest of the population was massacred. The Persian scholar Juvayni states that 50,000 Mongol soldiers were given the task of executing twenty-four Urgench citizens each, which would mean that 1.2 million people were killed. While this is an exaggeration, the sacking of Urgench is considered one of the bloodiest massacres in human history. History does not agree with you.

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:06:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Hard to have kids, back then, when you were already dead. OK, I'm not a doctor, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it is still hard to have kids when you are dead. Sperm banks. [;)]

slvemike4u -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:43:15 PM)
Just like Tazzy to find an exception,though he did say"take it with a grain of salt " Him not being a Doctor and all [:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 7:45:17 PM)
Note I did say back then.... lol... today frozen critters.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:21:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl lol.... and I have been on point. Khan was considered a military genius/bully. He is the example given for the indication that rape is a viable option for successful reproduction. The basis of that is his gene pool within the region. My argument against this as a reason is that if you remove enough of any other potential gene pool, you will end up a very selective gene pool. Khan proves nothing more than violence can restrict the gene pool offering... like we didnt already know that. Hard to have kids, back then, when you were already dead. I'm sure it didn't hurt anything, as I've mentioned previously.

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:26:48 PM)
quote: History does not agree with you. How so? He didn't kill every man in Asia and Eurasia, who would have paid tribute? Since I'm related to the Rus (Scandinavians), I'm glad to hear they died with their boots on. And I'm sure the resulting rape fest did wonders for genetic diversity in the region, it's a shame they're so fond of Vodka.

tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 8:58:02 PM)
Now that the derail and all its attendant BS has been thoroughly discredited and rejected, can we please get back to the OP and the issue of rape? I have suggested several times that the emphasis place on suppressing/minimising the emotional sphere during the training of young boys into masculinity might, in a small number of males, help enable the dissociative state of mind that seems to be a pre-requisite for actually carrying out a rape and inflicting all that horror on an innocent person. PeonForHer responded by asking: the matter of just how many ever have fantasies about raping versus the number of those who don't. I don't. It's not in my nature. (Thinking of some of the arguments in this thread, perhaps I lack something 'naturally male' and should troubled by that. Heh.) Yet, I know men who do but who've never raped. Fine. A fantasy is not a reality. I'd like to know what the latter felt, though, when watching that scene [in the movie 'Taxi Driver']. (post # 136) That many men (and women too) have fantasies about rape seems clearly established. Yet most men seem able to keep the fantasy and reality completely separate. We hear a variety of excuses trotted out as rapists try to defend their actions or have their sentences minimised, some far less credible than others (eg. she was asking for it). What do people feel is the difference that enables that tiny minority of men to rape? And what do people feel can be done to minimise the effects of such 'trigger' events? Is our attitude to rape always going to be after the event, always reactive? Surely there's something pro-active we can think of in this area, isn't there .....?

SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:17:44 PM)
I admit to fantasies of rape, and I have to admit that, as ashamed of it as I was, I became aroused by "the accused." I could never do that to an actual human being, but I might roleplay it with a woman who shared the fantasy. I think a prerequisite for rape is either the dehumanization of the victim, or a belief that the victim doesn't know what they want. I'd much rather see scenes of a woman being raped and hating it than the "she starts to enjoy it," because the latter scene helps create the latter type of rapist. The guy who says "You know you want it." I don't think the military really encourages dehumanization of women, but I can see how after dehumanizing "the enemy," the process might get easier. But serving next to a woman makes it a lot harder to dehumanize her. I guess the question is whether we are talking about within unit, military on military rapes or something like those sickos who killed a family in Iraq to rape the 15 year old girl. I actually think the rape rate in the military is similar to the civilian rate, though the military probably has more male/male rapes because of the lack of female victims. The military keeps close tabs on it's people though, so they probably detect rapes better-when they are not sweeping it under the rug. In the military you always know you have someone to tell, that you can get treatment without starting a legal fuss (if you don't want to report it), and that you can get a transfer away from your assailant. Not sure that is true in the civilian world. Of course, we are also talking about sexual harassment, and for a lot of guys, that sort of behavior can be their misguided idea of flirting (not saying that it is right). I think assertiveness training helps most with that, and I think many (but not all) military women are assertive. I do think that if a guy gropes and a woman slaps him, that should be the end of it as long as he learns his lesson... maybe that is wrong of me. I think sexual harassment will go down now that don't ask/don't tell is gone. Less of the "you won't go out with me, what are you, a lesbian?" type stuff happening. I don't know...

SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:23:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Surely there's something pro-active we can think of in this area, isn't there .....? Actually, I always figured that the two things that most led to rape are the belief by rapists that they can get away with it, and the rapists not getting caught. I keep wishing I could code a "Rape-alert," app for phones. It would allow a woman who was suspicious of her date, or thought she was being followed, to activate essentially a recorder on her phone. If it isn't turned off in 10 minutes, it calls 911 and if the phone isn't turned on, sends the audio and a location. An audio recording of a woman saying "no, stop, don't," should be enough to convict most rapists, including date rapists, because they can't claim the woman didn't say no. The cops show up in 15 minutes, get proof of sex and lack of consent, and a rapist goes to prison for 15 years. Then other rapists think twice about any woman with a phone or a purse, which is pretty much every woman, right? (yes, I'm a sexist bastard).

tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:37:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Surely there's something pro-active we can think of in this area, isn't there .....? Actually, I always figured that the two things that most led to rape are the belief by rapists that they can get away with it, and the rapists not getting caught. I keep wishing I could code a "Rape-alert," app for phones. It would allow a woman who was suspicious of her date, or thought she was being followed, to activate essentially a recorder on her phone. If it isn't turned off in 10 minutes, it calls 911 and if the phone isn't turned on, sends the audio and a location. An audio recording of a woman saying "no, stop, don't," should be enough to convict most rapists, including date rapists, because they can't claim the woman didn't say no. The cops show up in 15 minutes, get proof of sex and lack of consent, and a rapist goes to prison for 15 years. Then other rapists think twice about any woman with a phone or a purse, which is pretty much every woman, right? (yes, I'm a sexist bastard). What a great idea! Why don't you and a friend of yours who's into IT get to it. You guys could make a fortune as well as helping out innumerable women in uncomfortable or threatening situations. Can you please put me at the top of your prospective purchasers list to buy your app as soon it's been fully developed? [:D]

Owner59 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 9:39:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Trotta doubles down...... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/20/fox-news-liz-trotta-rape-military_n_1288769.html "Fox News pundit Liz Trotta responded to the barrage of criticism that was unleashed after she made a series incendiary statements regarding rape in the military. Trotta appeared on Fox News on Sunday. Fox News host Eric Shawn said Trotta "indicated that women who put their lives on the line for their country in close proximity to men are courting sexual assault.Some people understood [Trotta] to be saying that because of this, they are less deserving of protection from violent crime from their male counterparts, particularly because [she] criticize the Pentagon's sex abuse programs that are put in place to protect them." Trotta referred to prepared remarks and said she felt very misunderstood. She responded, "This is a subject that has never gotten a fair and open hearing either in the national media or in Congress." Trotta alleged that "the main objective" of "hardline feminists" is to "force the Pentagon to lift the ban on women in combat. Accordingly, the political correctness infecting the Pentagon has resulted in silly and dishonest fairytales about female heroism." Trotta recalled the story of Pfc. Jessica Lynch, and said there were "countless other stories of fake heroism or exaggerated prowess in which women are the stars, many of them tailored for the New York Times and its agenda to promote militant feminism, no matter what the truth." donno where the strikethrough came from, but it made it hard to read... Anyway, what is wrong with women in combat? We are no longer fighting with swords here people, and I don't care what gonads someone has, if they shoot me in the arse with an AK47 it'll hurt! More importantly, we have a technological military now. We need the smartest, fastest, most dedicated people we can get, and cutting half of the available resources out over gonads is just hurting the military for no reason. Now I do dislike having women nukes, but that is because the idea of a woman smart enough to handle nuclear physics risking her genes is a crime against nature...especially the really hot ones. Maybe I'm wrong in that, I mean, I think a man's gonads replenish, so damage is temporary, while a woman's eggs are at risk, but maybe the danger of mutation is still there? In any case, I dislike, but don't try to prevent. If one considers how many child soldiers there are(for real....tens of thousands of them, all over the world but especially in Africa)it`s not hard to see that gender is making less and less of a difference everyday,especially toting a Kalashnikov. No doubt on average,men can kick a women`s asses more often but on an individual basis,anything can happen.I know women half my weight and 6 inches shorter who my ass,and have. Making it all about "combat'" tho is a ruse.There are ten or more non-combat support personnel needed for ever one combat soldier. There are TONS of jobs women are happy to do(I know some Iraq female vets)like policing,guard duty(my friends did A LOT of that),truck driving,medical/food/RR,etc. All that said,it`s hard to say that a female tank commander or a female tank crew couldn`t perform just as well as a male crew or male tank commander. Or with any other weapon or weapon system,the same.

Edwynn -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 10:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle And what do people feel can be done to minimise the effects of such 'trigger' events? First of all, apologies for one of my earlier responses to one of your posts. Disagree or not, I went overboard a bit and my general tone in that event was uncalled for. At the slightest whiff of generalization or perceived venture into pigeon-holing, I become 'unsettled,' at the least, with potential for overreaction on occasion an unfortunate concomitant. In any event, I seldom know what to prescribe for individual instances or particular examples of social or individual pathological acts. All I know to do most of the time is to repeat my old boring nostrum of 'well, if we just run society so that we don't have such high economic disequilibrium then we would greatly reduce all social ills, knowing that none of them will ever be eliminated to zero percent.' Like I said, boring, understandably evoking the response from many; 'thanks! not any help at all, but thanks.' The suppressing/minimising of emotional reaction you mention is certainly one element of the process that leads to the distancing of one's actions from affect on another, one's actions in that case being determined only by, in this instance, a distorted desire. But in these last some years I think it's safe to say that the great increase in overall noise level, in terms of the ubiquity of the noise more than the amplitude, is starting to have its effect. The constant input of sensory stimulus by way of TV, the inescapable background music anywhere in public or when put on hold, and lately more use of earbuds and constant cell phone usage and texting, heard by all in the vicinity, not just the user, and then the nefarious video games, is causing a bad combination of general desensitisation with constant mild agitation and stress to the body and the subconscious from the constant input. When considering triggering events we have to take into account that a greater sensitivity of the trigger or a lighter touch to effect response will result in more triggering events. Cliquishness and some form of bullying have always existed in the schools, but there seem to be ever more instances of spontaneous violence and wild beatings, more noticeably lately in an increase in group beatings of one person, both boy groups and more conspicuously girl group beatings. I have seen a few of the war video games and some others that involve such things as destroying things and running over individuals or crowds of people with a car. I cannot believe that some of these video games are legal. And given modern technology and the knowledge that 'snuff' films and real rape films exist, little imagination is needed to suspect the existence of their video 'game' counterparts. But even without considering those latter extreme examples, all video games have the effect of getting the player more agitated, not necessarily in the negative sense of annoyance, but in terms of getting over excited, more 'amped up.' I can't imagine that repeated exposure or indulging in such things wouldn't have an effect on the general mental state of a person. Many the modern day soldier spends a lot of bunk time at the video console, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to investigate what effect that might have in that particular environment, including the possibility of making one more hair-trigger responsive when presented with certain situations. Lots more to consider in this question, but I've bored enough already for now.

Edwynn -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/20/2012 11:17:20 PM)
PS This might not be the best analogy, but it's is one way of considering the effect on the player of most any video game I've seen: Small puddle of gasoline, or petrol, over here; a live flame way over there; the repeated playing of the video game is as a dripping of petrol from above onto the currently small puddle. Initially the distance between petrol and flame is significant, nothing that would alarm anyone. But the steady dripping gradually increases the area of the puddle. It never gets any higher, so it might be easier to overlook the fact that the petrol is getting ever closer to the flame. Most of the time it would be noticed eventually, before it was too late. But then occasionally it might not.

kalikshama -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/21/2012 3:19:37 AM)
Ok, she's had a week to think about this and look into the issue and still doesn't realize that the 64% increase in sex crimes was at military academies, not in combat situations? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/20/fox-news-liz-trotta-rape-military_n_1288769.html "I certainly did not say all military men are rapists," Trotta responded. "What I believe and tried to express, apparently not well enough, is that the environment of combat by definition sets up a situation where basic instincts rule. The niceties of male, female interaction fade in this arena and any scientist will tell you that testosterone rules." Trotta then referred to the Pentagon study she cited last week that stated that the number of sex crimes committed by army personnel has increased by 64 percent over the past six years.

kalikshama -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/21/2012 3:48:32 AM)
Trotta alleged that "the main objective" of "hardline feminists" is to "force the Pentagon to lift the ban on women in combat. Yes, those renowed feminists on the Military Leadership Diversity Commission [8\|] http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/military-women-combat-120710w/ The Defense Department should eliminate restrictions on women serving in combat units and end all “gender restrictive policies,” according to a blue-ribbon panel created by Congress. The move would end the military’s long tradition of all-male combat units and open up career fields like infantry and armor to “qualified women.” The recommendation by the Military Leadership Diversity Commission will be included in a formal report to Congress and the White House in March. The commission met and discussed the combat exclusion policy for females at a meeting Dec. 3, said Erica Lewis, a commission spokeswoman. Many of the longstanding reasons for keeping women out of combat units do not hold up under scrutiny, the commission’s research found. A five-page analysis prepared for the commission concluded that women do not lack the physical ability to perform combat roles; gender integration will not negatively affect unit cohesion; and women are not more likely than men to develop mental health problems. http://mldc.whs.mil/download/documents/Final%20Report/MLDC_Final_Report.pdf [image]local://upfiles/1052865/699E3EC10170458EA264DE8D4DB00978.jpg[/image]

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