RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 1:30:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I don't blame Fox for this.

Not everybody there is that crazy sounding.



If Fox doesn't boot her, I'll agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

This woman's words amount to nothing useful nor good for us as a society. She's hateful, ignorant, old, most likely insane, and without the facts to back up ANYTHING she stated. In less words: She's a conservative Republican. I am willing to bet she would gladly through our military people's lives away on needless violence, rather than having to pay a penny towards pensions or any other retirement benefits. That goes double for anyone with missing limbs! Calling her a 'person' is generous. People like her have nothing good to contribute to our wonderful nation except to serve as an example of what NOT to allow in any sort of political office or power.



*Sigh*... and then the namecalling starts...

Her particular brand of crazy comes in "conservative Republican".  There ARE other brands...

It's like when Jared Loughner had shot Giffords.  Everyone was trying to figure out his political stances when not only were they irrelevant, he was too confused to even subscribe to any coherent viewpoint.




Marc2b -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 6:48:41 AM)

What a clueless twat.  She is totally incapable of seeing the victims of rape as real people with real feelings.  She apparently thinks a certain amount of rape is acceptable ("raped too much").  GAWD!  What also really got my goat was her contention that the purpose of the military is to protect us, not the people in the military.  Well, she's half right... the purpose of the military is to protect us but while a certain level of risk should be an understood condition of joining, surely that risk should come only from the enemy... not a soldier's own fucking side!

While I remain opposed to the death penalty I might be willing to make an exception here (this is the military after all, not civilian life)... anyone convicted of raping a fellow soldier - make like McArthur and hang the bastard!

(Wasn't it McArthur who threatened to hang any U.S. soldier who raped a civilian during the occupation of Japan?   I recall hearing that somewhere.)




PeonForHer -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 7:03:30 AM)

NM




Marc2b -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 7:36:25 AM)

quote:

NM


New Mexico?  What about it?




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 7:58:48 AM)

I haven't read the full article, and I probably won't, because it's so asinine. But what I really don't like is that she ascribes this to some real, tangible difference between men and women. Something violent and criminal is just part of what men are, and "what else would you expect" -- that's like saying "we already know they can't do any better," which is absolutely false and absolutely ridiculous.




Owner59 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 8:36:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Men raping men is/can be just as trumatic as men raping women.

Grow up.


No need for your childish attacks. I know it's just as traumatic. But to hear the femininazis talk, it's always the women who get raped by the big, mean men.

Clearly that's not the case.




How many men rape women compared to how many women rape men?

It`s usually is ALWAYS............. that men................ are the rapists.

Prove me wrong.





mnottertail -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 8:39:03 AM)

'Usually always' seems to intend a hedgebet.  LOL, I'm always playing.

Tis troth, I would like to have a woman try and rape me, and we will see who finishes the deed first.  




thishereboi -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 9:36:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I haven't read the full article, and I probably won't, because it's so asinine. But what I really don't like is that she ascribes this to some real, tangible difference between men and women. Something violent and criminal is just part of what men are, and "what else would you expect" -- that's like saying "we already know they can't do any better," which is absolutely false and absolutely ridiculous.



So you think it is just a coincidence that most rapists are men? If there is no difference between the two, why don't we hear more stories about women raping others? Now I am not sure what that difference is, but I think it is pretty obvious that it is there.




thishereboi -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 9:38:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Men raping men is/can be just as trumatic as men raping women.

Grow up.


No need for your childish attacks. I know it's just as traumatic. But to hear the femininazis talk, it's always the women who get raped by the big, mean men.

Clearly that's not the case.




How many men rape women compared to how many women rape men?

It`s usually is ALWAYS............. that men................ are the rapists.

Prove me wrong.



See, there are some things we can agree on [:D]




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 10:37:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So you think it is just a coincidence that most rapists are men? If there is no difference between the two, why don't we hear more stories about women raping others? Now I am not sure what that difference is, but I think it is pretty obvious that it is there.


If this was an issue that was true of ALL men, then there'd be 100% of men who commit rape every day.
Women do rape, and when their victims are men, the men don't report it because they're embarrassed. I mean, that's pretty old news, do you live under a rock?

There certainly are some differences between men and women. And men generally are more likely to be outwardly aggressive. But RAPE in and of itself isn't some "thing" that all men just "do" because they can't do any better, as this woman seems to state.

Rather than actually address the point of my post, which is the assumption that men just can't do any better, you choose to pick and choose and find the most inflammatory interpretation of a post that you possibly can. That's not sound. Nothing in your post has anything at all to do with mine. Learn to read.




thishereboi -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 10:42:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So you think it is just a coincidence that most rapists are men? If there is no difference between the two, why don't we hear more stories about women raping others? Now I am not sure what that difference is, but I think it is pretty obvious that it is there.


If this was an issue that was true of ALL men, then there'd be 100% of men who commit rape every day.
Where did you get all men. I said I saw a difference, I never said anything about all men or even most men.

Women do rape, and when their victims are men, the men don't report it because they're embarrassed. I mean, that's pretty old news, do you live under a rock?
Yes, they do, but it doesn't happen any where as frequently as men raping women or men raping men. I would adress the rock comment, but my guess is you really don't mean that seriously. You were just trying get a little slam in there. And I do mean little.

There certainly are some differences between men and women. And men generally are more likely to be outwardly aggressive. But RAPE in and of itself isn't some "thing" that all men just "do" because they can't do any better, as this woman seems to state.
I didn't say they all do. I just pointed out that the majority of rapes are by men.

Rather than actually address the point of my post, which is the assumption that men just can't do any better, you choose to pick and choose and find the most inflammatory interpretation of a post that you possibly can. That's not sound. Nothing in your post has anything at all to do with mine. Learn to read.
I could say the same thing right back atcha.





Owner59 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 5:44:57 PM)

[image]http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/rape-480.jpg[/image]




DarqueMirror -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 6:04:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
It`s usually is ALWAYS............. that men................ are the rapists.


If your assertion is that women never rape men, you are sadly misinformed.




kalikshama -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 8:37:01 PM)

http://servicewomen.org/SAPRO%20Reports/DoD_Fiscal_Year_2010_Annual_Report_on_Sexual_Assault_in_the_Military.pdf

[image]local://upfiles/1052865/B59E3A1E0B4240E987A0F3C4CBA60620.jpg[/image]




BenevolentM -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 9:07:45 PM)

All this talk is causing me to relive what traumatic experiences I've had at the hands of a woman. After all these years to be still gripped with these feelings and the hopelessness that I will ever see justice. Something to remember on Valentine's Day. Wonderful topic for Valentine's Day.




SternSkipper -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/14/2012 9:36:09 PM)

quote:

If this was an issue that was true of ALL men, then there'd be 100% of men who commit rape every day.
Women do rape, and when their victims are men, the men don't report it because they're embarrassed. I mean, that's pretty old news, do you live under a rock?

There certainly are some differences between men and women. And men generally are more likely to be outwardly aggressive. But RAPE in and of itself isn't some "thing" that all men just "do" because they can't do any better, as this woman seems to state.

Rather than actually address the point of my post, which is the assumption that men just can't do any better, you choose to pick and choose and find the most inflammatory interpretation of a post that you possibly can. That's not sound. Nothing in your post has anything at all to do with mine. Learn to read.


Your points are excellent. Really glad someone else saw those remarks before I did for a change.





Aswad -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 3:15:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

1. The statistic in question is a 64% increase in rape since 2006.  Obviously, something has changed since 2006.  She was so eager to blame feminism that she omitted to look for a factor that changed since 2006.  Dummy.


Quite right with regard to needing to look for the cause of the change.

That said, is there a 64% increase in reported cases, or in per capita occuring cases?

quote:

2. Her basic stance seems to be that women are unfit for combat, and that the only reason they're there is due to political pressure from feminists.  Wacky.


This is a common misconception, and Major Lyudmila Pavlichenko is an excellent counterpoint, at 309 credited kills. In more recent events, a single female pilot with the Norwegian Air Force flew between 3% and 6% of the total NATO air strikes in Libya, amounting to a double digits number of targets bombed. In older news, one of the early muslim armies was led by a woman, as have several Chinese armies, and the antiquity saw several peoples with men and women both participating fully in warfare. Thus, there is an unbroken record of several millenia of women serving usefully in their respective armed forces.

The flip side of the coin is that feminists are part of the reason why the bar is lowered for women in many branches of various nations' services, which is detrimental to the women who could make it with the bar at a male level (or detrimental to the men who could make it if the bar were consistently lowered). This is a legitimate complaint, but mostly because it's so detrimental to women and discriminatory. It doesn't seem to have a major impact on overall combat efficiency, though it does have an impact on how hard it is to gain respect.

Of course, being on Fucked Noose, she prolly doesn't know the head end from the ass end on a woman, let alone a soldier.

quote:

3. She believes that putting men and women together will result in rape.  I wonder how many times she's been raped by male colleagues at Fox News?  If that's not prevalent, maybe she could try to think about a difference between the military and Fox.


There's a difference?

Apart from efficiency and the territory being fought for, I mean?

quote:

4. Brilliant how she complained that the military is wasting money on military rape victims.  Should be good for antagonizing all political camps.


I'm guessing the sheer amount of BS is a strategy in itself, as it makes it hard-to-impossible for anyone to adequately address even a fraction of all the BS coming out of there. In that regard, this is almost perfect, and probably scores her a lot of points.

quote:

5. The question is, how much of a firestorm this will set off.


A more interesting question is what consequences, if any, it will have.

Firestorms just fuel the extreme right, regardless of outcome. Fostering malcontent has always worked for the rich, the privileged and the extremists. Just look at the French Revolution (the triumph of the elites, as much as anything in European history), or the time leading up to the Enabling Act interwar Germany.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 3:19:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

That's kind of a myth. Some criminal activity can be waivered, but nothing serious. And with the recent push to shrink the forces, even minor criminal backgrounds are being turned away.


That your screening is inadequate isn't a myth, however, and the military is quite aware of it (but what can you do when the politicians ship you out to wherever so you have to get a bazillion recruits in there real quick).

quote:

When I was in, they came in both varieties, military and non-military. But we called them "dorm hos."


"Field mattress" is the term we use in Norway.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 4:04:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

Something violent and criminal is just part of what men are, and "what else would you expect" -- that's like saying "we already know they can't do any better," which is absolutely false and absolutely ridiculous.


We can do better. Anyone claiming we can't, belongs in a collar or cell. But: it is actually a part of most of us. Anyone claiming it isn't, is probably either lacking in introspection, honesty, or masculinity. Also: women generally find that part attractive, unless they're dominantly wired or have had exposure to that part as it is when not restrained. Drunk women are more libido-driven and that increases the attraction, while reducing the ability to distinguish between men who control their cocks, and men controlled by their cocks. Still: most men and women are able to benefit from this trait, because most are able to deal with reality to some extent, even those who are unable to acknowledge it.

As said elsewhere, codes and discipline are the difference between a soldier and an armed thug.

An armed man with discipline and a code that doesn't permit rape is generally a woman's best friend. Armed thugs, on the other hand, are a danger to both men and women, and rape is likely to be on the list of potential risks faced by those around them. Obviously, it is in the best interest of any military, and any civilian leadership using a military, to make sure theirs consists of the former, and not the latter. It may be necessary for the military codes to differ significantly from the civilian ones, but that is not strictly a sex thing, as women in the military are also likely to grow in a different direction from what most civilians do. And it should not include allowing arbitrary attacks on one's own, as that is contrary to pretty much every productive concern in a military, and to their role in general.

That said, I wonder if the simplest approach might be to have an official prostitute branch in the military. Volunteer basis, like anything else. Basic training, including self defense and how to deal with bad seeds. Inoculations and checkups, with compartmentalization and other epidemological concerns dealt with. The pay should be steady, reasonable, and not directly tied to encounters (ration cards?). Officers that have a lot of interpersonal skills and receive applicable medical training with an emphasis on psychology. Good education and career options for the future. Retirement benefits. The ability to qualify for special forces units that work undercover.

From my experience with high class prostitutes, it seems quite possible to pursue a career in the field with no adverse outcome, except a certain cynicism about people that seems more like realism than any actual cynicism. The key point, like with the enlisted in the military, is to have decent screening and to have an emphasis on recruiting and retaining people who have other options and thus are in it on a voluntary basis instead of seeing it as their only way out of a difficult situation. In other words, don't recruit street worker prostitutes, but rather recruit middle class women who have what it takes to do sex, rather than having it, at will, or who are able to acquire that skill.

That doesn't fix the existing problem, but it may be a band-aid for people you're keeping on as necessities, and can be useful in normalizing life for those in the service, as well as reducing exposure to local STDs. (I don't know about the USA, but Norwegian soldiers do use local prostitutes, who are sometimes so keen on foreign currency that their attempts at pushing their wares would be called rape if it were men doing it to women.)

The intelligence and covert ops possibilities are also quite useful, which the USSR realized ages ago.

Health,
al-Aswad.




masternoname -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 5:10:16 AM)

If that had been his intention dont you think he would have said always and not added usually to the thought?

I think most people realize that there are women out ther who rape others

Its just when you look at the numbers that you realize it is usually men.

notice I said usually also and no I didnt mean always either

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
It`s usually is ALWAYS............. that men................ are the rapists.


If your assertion is that women never rape men, you are sadly misinformed.






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