RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?'

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RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/17/2012 5:20:01 AM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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Here`s another gem relating to cons blaming feminism for our (read,their) ills.

"The radical feminists succeeded in undermining the traditional family and convincing women that professional accomplishments are the key to happiness."

This is something Sen. Frothy wrote in his book..."It Takes a Family: Conservatism and the Common Good."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rick-santorum-mysterious-paradoxical-manifesto-takes-family-character-122819958.html

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/17/2012 5:21:26 AM >

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Post #: 121

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/17/2012 11:04:31 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

why so many males are sexually assaulted in the military is significant. [...] the possibility that there could be something in the way masculinity is constructed and reproduced in our societies that opens the door to rape?

Earlier, you mentioned the feminist analysis that rape is about power and violence, rather than sex†.

I will go one step further and say that the three are different faces on a single entity: conquest. It's not just what causes a dog to hump your leg. It's also what drives a man to impose his will on the world, altering his environment to suit him. Whether due to culture or other factors, the stereotypically female response is to adapt to her environment. This is nowhere as evident as in connection with rape, where the response of women collectively is one of fear, avoidance, surrender and so forth.

From the currently stereotypical masculine perspective, the "correct" response to weakness is to press the advantage, especially against men. That's how we work: hunt, conquer, kill... and occasionally we reach out to touch the moon and bring back samples from it, as part of this reaching, striving and overcoming. We violated gravity and fondled the stars. And it was pretty damn satisfying, too.

Here's where we see a bit of a divergence.

For some men, the most they aspire to is to attack a woman. In all fairness, if we stick with the broad strokes of the brush, that's not much of a challenge. Look for some drunk or scared piece of ass with no muscle, no backup and no wits about her. Approach. Threaten. Fuck. Insult. Shame. Jizz. Leave. Expect for her not to press charges, for the police to give a shit, and for the courts to acquit. Back your claim to her ass with certainty: she enjoyed it. Most likely, you're home free.

For other men, victory requires a prospect of defeat, requires a real challenge. Often, that challenge will be found in a field completely unrelated to sex and women. I know damn well how to cause a blackout, without leaving a trace, and I can't say there's any shortage of women looking to get themselves into a vulnerable position. That's not a challenge. Finding a woman that's out of my league, winning her over, and ensuring the two of us have every reason to exchange real phone numbers in the morning, more so. Getting down to a few inches spread near the max range of a .338 Lapua. Pulling a company from some negative 8 million dollars net worth to positive 30 million dollars net worth in a few months. Figuring out how to treat someone the doctors have given up on. Those are challenges. Tough challenges. Worth my time.

Raping a man may or may not be more of a challenge. I don't swing that way, and I don't know any that have admitted to being on the receiving end. I've no idea if men are as docile and compliant as women, faced with a lone rapist. I tend to think there's some real pressure involved in most cases, but that's pure speculation on my part. I'm guessing there are a lot of cases of "putting the guy in his place" or maybe "showing him his place", but again it's not a topic I've looked enough into.

Feel free to enlighten me.

That said, go looking for what we fetishize. There's a lot of the answer. The dynamic. In the right context, with the right person, being put in one's place ranks high on the hotness meter for a lot of the submissives. Being the one who does so, for the dominants. Hot in the context of kink. Traumatic during rape, because it's not welcome on any level, at least not any mental level (a lot of people have unwelcome responses of a physical nature, which tends to aggravate the trauma).

Clearly, healthy and unhealthy expressions of the same thing are possible.

quote:

The cynical answer is that to accept this possibility would mean accepting some responsibility for changing whatever flaws can be identified, and that too many men are too attached to the privileges that accompany masculinity in our societies to be bothered.

In the spirit of cynicism, perhaps it comes down to something even simpler, and equally unpleasant to consider. Perhaps the modern lifestyle just excludes a lot of men from access to any other outlet for an intrinsic drive to conquer than to direct it where it's not welcome. Perhaps it's not that our ideas are at fault, but rather that we have created a world in which our drives are a maladaptation for most of us.

Prior to the neolithic revolution, when human health indicators were at a level they did not return to until the late 20th century, virtually every man had ample challenges in life that could be overcome and also be satisfying. Either one died, or one was useful. An asset. Living in boxes in the corral, few men have what it takes to accomplish. To accomplish anything, really. We're not very useful, and certainly not assets. Not unless we're pretty damn exceptional, or lucky enough to end up in the right place at the right time.

One can't blame feminism for that, of course. Men have had a greater role in shaping society into what it is than women, by virtue of being part of the governing process for longer. And there should be ways for both genders to coexist in a complementary and interdependent manner, parts of a greater whole. There's no reason it can't be. But it's an open question whether we can truly avoid a rape problem without some meaningful outlet for the bulk of the men out there, except by locking men away, or culling them. Which creates a lot of other problems, in turn, and only turns an earlier problem on its head. Also, it runs afoul of being a rather politically incorrect way to resolve things, and thus becomes unviable.

I love women, and howevermuch I might have it in me to cross that line, I don't wish the results on any woman. (Though I expect there's plenty of cases where someone does wish to hurt a woman and uses an act of rape as the way to do so. It's certainly the case in Congo, for instance.)

Maybe I'm hiding behind an outdated view of masculinity, or clinging to some unrealized privileges.

But I can't help but wonder why I, with the right wiring for it, and being more capable than most who do it, am choosing not to rape, despite this outdated view and all that inclination toward a simple, brutish life and world. Perhaps there is another factor one should be looking for. Something else that makes me a guy whose attentions are usually appreciated, even when tinged with power and violence, while the next guy is a rapist. Because it's not that I couldn't enjoy the experience, and it's not that I can't do it, and I doubt that it's got anything to do with my worldview being too masculine or too old fashioned or too primitive.

Perhaps I simply have other sources of satisfaction that are more meaningful. Perhaps I simply have too much loyalty to my fellow citizens, or care too much about them. Or perhaps it's neither simple, nor one single factor alone.

We may need a finer brush, and I'll use mine if you use yours.

Health,
al-Aswad.

† Inspection offers reflection. Feminist analyses of rape as power and violence seems to indicate women, or at least feminists, don't have the same basis for their sexuality as those they analyze. Seeing as sex is a central drive in any species, that implies some fundamental differences that correspond well to the recent 15-factor personality vs gender factoring study, which identifies some traits as being extremely clustered by gender.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 122

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/17/2012 1:59:12 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

But I can't help but wonder why I, with the right wiring for it, and being more capable than most who do it, am choosing not to rape, despite this outdated view and all that inclination toward a simple, brutish life and world. Perhaps there is another factor one should be looking for. Something else that makes me a guy whose attentions are usually appreciated, even when tinged with power and violence, while the next guy is a rapist. Because it's not that I couldn't enjoy the experience, and it's not that I can't do it, and I doubt that it's got anything to do with my worldview being too masculine or too old fashioned or too primitive.

Perhaps I simply have other sources of satisfaction that are more meaningful. Perhaps I simply have too much loyalty to my fellow citizens, or care too much about them. Or perhaps it's neither simple, nor one single factor alone.

Thank you Aswad for your post. It is a serious attempt to address the questions I posed. Or, if you prefer, a response to the “challenge” I threw out to males to address the question of rape. You’ve set an example many males should, IMHO, do well to emulate.

From where I sit the paragraph I have quoted above undermines the arguments that preceded it. Those preceding arguments were an attempt to ground the behaviours of males in some kind of ‘natural’ drive, or force. For me it is precisely the fact that most men don’t rape that eliminates explanations that seek to ground rape in some kind of natural behaviour/force/drive. If the behaviour is natural, then it is reasonable to expect that at least a majority of males would engage in it. We know that most men don’t - which to me suggests we might look elsewhere for explanations of this behaviour.

Where then might we begin to look? A common feature of male cultures is something we might agree to call a “cult of violence”. This can be seen in the games young boys are encouraged to play,. in sports such as football or boxing, in activities such as war or crime (both traditionally dominated by males), in the competitive (victor/vanquished) nature of many male behaviours and many other areas. A common and widely accepted conflict resolution method between males is to ‘fight it out’. Violence is far more likely to be carried out by males, and far more likely to be acceptable to males. Males tend to value, and aspire to “warrior” status far more than females. There is some connection between male behaviours/values and violence, even if most males succeed in suppressing the worst aspects of such violence throughout their lives. Whether this connection in innate or otherwise is one thing - it is clear that the pattern I’ve just outlined is encouraged and inculcated into males as part of maturation, as part of “becoming" a man, as part of male acculturation. It is also clear that this violence and the training in/exercise of are intricately linked. Males are far more likely to resort to force/violence as a strategy to achieve their goals, as means of expressing their power.

Concurrently, it can be observed that part of the process of masculinisation involves the suppression/minimisation of the emotional sphere. The overt display of emotion, even the acknowledgement of emotional needs is commonly suppressed in male culture. This starts young - boys are trained not to cry. Men tend to be considerably less empathetic than females. . One outcome of this is the males tend to dissociate the sexual and emotional spheres, and tend to be far more likely to engage in sexual behaviour without any concurrent emotional involvement. Males are also far less likely to seek assistance for emotional problems. Again this process is part of male acculturation, part of social training process whereby boys become men.

It seems to me that a fundamental feature of all human behaviours is its diversity. Regardless of which area of human endeavour is measured, humans will perform across a range/spectrum of diversity. Similarly we all react to the gender training we receive 24/7 all of our lives from the moment we are born across a spectrum of diversity. This insight enables a prediction that males will respond to male acculturation across a range of diversity.

Putting all that together enables one to understand why some males rape and most don’t. Males will internalise the ‘cult of violence’ in diverse ways, they will tend to separate emotions. In most cases, men will control their impulses towards violence and refrain from projecting it onto women. In a minority of cases, males will resort to the sexualised violence of rape as a means of expressing their power. It is probably the case that additional factors - a particularly brutal childhood for example - will prove the ‘tipping point’. Nonetheless the groundwork will have been done by the process of male acculturation.

If this analysis has any merit (and I concede it is speculative), then we need to look closely at the processes whereby little children are trained to become men, and specifically at the two areas I have nominated - the cult of violence and the suppression of emotional expression - if we are going to be serious about addressing the issue of rape. This seems to me to be a far more likely explanation of why rapes occur and why males are generally so reluctant to look at the issue of rape in a meaningful way - to do so places the very process of male acculturation under examination and therefore it becomes an issue for all men.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/17/2012 2:03:55 PM >

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Post #: 123

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 12:40:13 AM

DarqueMirror

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I think the fucks-news femi-con was trying to appeal to the older/past generation`s myths about rape.

Man it cracks me up when this accusation/name-calling is hurled my way, especially when avoid faux news like the plague.

But please, continue making assumptions all you like. They do entertain me.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 124

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 5:12:55 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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Well, given that Fox News went to court to defend their privilege of lying to people, why would anyone TRUST anything they say?

It says a lot about a man -- who they trust. And I think it's a critical failure of grit to trust someone know to be untrustworthy.

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(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 125

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 7:22:56 AM

xssve

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quote:

If this analysis has any merit (and I concede it is speculative), then we need to look closely at the processes whereby little children are trained to become men, and specifically at the two areas I have nominated - the cult of violence and the suppression of emotional expression - if we are going to be serious about addressing the issue of rape. This seems to me to be a far more likely explanation of why rapes occur and why males are generally so reluctant to look at the issue of rape in a meaningful way - to do so places the very process of male acculturation under examination and therefore it becomes an issue for all men.

Well I have to say that gender being a product of socialization has been pretty well retired, and I think I went into the complexities of genetics on the other thread, i.e., just because it has biological origins doesn't mean everybody does it, that's a gross oversimplification, the only thing yo can assume is that there will be a generous amount of diversity in behavior displayed, with the fattest part of the curve always falling where the most optimal results are to be obtained, that' show natural selection works - and rape, although I proved it to be a successful means of reproduction, I also mentioned is not the most optimal means by a long shot, it's a relatively marginal one, just successful enough to keep the trait recurrent, not enough to activate it on a broad scale.

However, in this case there is likely a fairly substantial social component: opposition to women serving in combat itself is likely to lead to increased levels of hazing and harassment, of which rape is likely to be a statistical component, whatever motives you wish to assign.

If you want to alter competitiveness across the board, good luck with that, it's never going to happen, at best you can try to affect the rules of the game - i.e., in the current political dialogue, the right has taken the P.T. Barnum/"Red" Sanders ethical tack ("there's a sucker born every minute"/"winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"), i.e., the world is divided linguistically into "winners" and "losers", a shift that took place back in the Eighties, and women, by definition, are firmly in the latter camp.

This particular ethical matrix/construct, further reinforced by Calvinist predeterminist theology which supplies theological justification, is inimical to the entire concept of any sense of honor or fair play, it's all about what you can get away with, and that has distinct culture wide effects of which this is only one of the more egregious examples.

And, it is a pretty big deal, it signifies a disturbing shift in the cultural telos: it rewards opportunism, undermining the meritocratic foundations of the free market itself by redefining merit as winning at any cost - wealth is synonymous with character and morality however it is obtained, and very difficult to mediate on a strictly social level: if you can cheat and be enriched thereby, and not get caught, there is very little incentive to refrain, spreading corruption is the only possible outcome.

Culture wars indeed.

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Post #: 126

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 2:45:12 PM

tweakabelle

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xxsve if you are going to insist on posting the offensive and ridiculous claim that rape is a "successful reproductive strategy", you might explain how male-on-male rape or male-on-child (of any gender) rape can be seen as "successful reproductive strategies"?

If you are unable to explain this apparent conundrum, could you please consign your absurd guess/opinion to the nearest trash can permanently. You will be doing yourself and the world a favour by doing so.

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Post #: 127

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 6:18:20 PM

tazzygirl

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Hell, tweak, why do you bother to read his drivel anymore?

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(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 128

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 7:31:00 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me it is precisely the fact that most men don’t rape that eliminates explanations that seek to ground rape in some kind of natural behaviour/force/drive. If the behaviour is natural, then it is reasonable to expect that at least a majority of males would engage in it.

This is simplistic. You can do better.

In any case, I'm going to have to break the response into pieces, as I lost a few thousand words to an accident midway through. But I'll note right away that I'm not inclined to agree on the 'cult of violence' point, and have had an atypical rearing in a more gender neutral direction, while always being rather teflon when it comes to norms: they've rarely stuck. Doesn't seem to change the outcome. Nor the fact that I've a certain fondness for encounters that are well described by a slogan fielded by another poster here: "I feel violated. Do it again!"

Meanwhile, it could be interesting to have you answer something I think you sort of glossed over, or maybe missed:

In your opinion, why have I not turned out a rapist?

What is the distinguishing factor in your model? The outcome predictor?

This, of course, assuming you don't consider me one. In the converse case, equivalent commentary would be equally interesting.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 129

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 9:08:02 PM

tweakabelle

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Hell, tweak, why do you bother to read his drivel anymore?

I wish my answer was as good as your question tazzy.

Generally I don't bother with the drivel he posts on topics like this (on other subjects he can have interesting things to say occasionally). But I do find it difficult to allow his ugly vicious guess/opinion on rape pass by unchallenged.

The smug pseudo-scientific crap is just too offensive for words.

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Post #: 130

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 9:56:30 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me it is precisely the fact that most men don’t rape that eliminates explanations that seek to ground rape in some kind of natural behaviour/force/drive. If the behaviour is natural, then it is reasonable to expect that at least a majority of males would engage in it.

This is simplistic. You can do better.

In any case, I'm going to have to break the response into pieces, as I lost a few thousand words to an accident midway through. But I'll note right away that I'm not inclined to agree on the 'cult of violence' point, and have had an atypical rearing in a more gender neutral direction, while always being rather teflon when it comes to norms: they've rarely stuck. Doesn't seem to change the outcome. Nor the fact that I've a certain fondness for encounters that are well described by a slogan fielded by another poster here: "I feel violated. Do it again!"

Meanwhile, it could be interesting to have you answer something I think you sort of glossed over, or maybe missed:

In your opinion, why have I not turned out a rapist?

What is the distinguishing factor in your model? The outcome predictor?

This, of course, assuming you don't consider me one. In the converse case, equivalent commentary would be equally interesting.

Health,
al-Aswad.

The analysis I offered above doesn’t seek to identify or explain individual events. It’s designed and advanced as a general analysis, to offer a framework within which more specific events can be viewed, researched and analysed.

As for you personally, I haven’t the qualifications, nor the knowledge of your personal circumstances, nor I might add the inclination to offer a view on why you might or mightn’t choose to rape. Suffice it to say that if I thought for a moment that it was a real possibility, we wouldn’t be having this or any other conversations.

You might reasonably object to the term “cult of violence” but I don’t believe there’s any way to seriously dispute the claim that violence, in our cultures, is generally viewed as part of the male/masculine domain. This is not to assert it’s a male monopoly, it is to assert that male children are far more likely to encouraged to express themselves roughly, that currently and historically violent behaviour is far more likely to be carried out by males than non-males, that such behaviour is far more likely to be acceptable to males than non-males, and so on.

Even if we agree (for the purpose of this conversation only) that there may be a biological basis for such behaviour by males, surely we can agree that there are numerous levels of cultural training that emphasise male violence overlaying that biological substrate. I offered the term ‘cult of violence’ to describe this phenomenon. Please feel free to offer another if you feel it’s inaccurate.

While I make no claim to understand the psychology of a rapist, I feel it’s basic to assert that, at some psychological level, a history or belief in violence as a conflict resolution strategy, and an ability to be unaffected by the emotional consequences for the victim are pre-requisites for rape. I find it difficult to imagine how one might choose to rape without a disposition moulded by these factors. There may well be many other factors involved, but it’s self evident that unless the rapist believes that violent behaviour offers a solution to whatever internal turmoil may be being experienced by the rapist, the option of rape will not appeal to the rapist. And unless the rapist has a means of successfully divorcing or suppressing the damage he is causing from his consciousness, the potential damage he is about to do to the victim will deter his impulses. An ability to suppress one’s empathetic feelings towards other humans seems a necessary pre-requisite for rape, and conversely, one would expect that an ability to recognise and act on one’s empathetic feelings towards others would militate against rape as a real option..

I am asserting that these factors are common throughout Western (and other) cultures in the practices we use to produce and implant masculinity into male children, that they are common strategies in the cultural production of masculinities.

Just as women took a good look at ourselves through the filter of feminism, and decided to take control of, and change the construction of femininity in our cultures so too men can decide to take control of how masculinity is viewed and constructed. There's nothing natural or unchangeable in the cultural production of masculinities. In such a process, the factors I have identified above as less than desirable can be isolated and discarded, and new far more empathetic non- and anti-violent masculinities can be constructed by men.

The power is in your hands and the choices are all yours.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/18/2012 10:04:41 PM >

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Post #: 131

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/18/2012 11:21:45 PM

Edwynn

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Let's be realistic if we might. I would (in fact I actually do) consider your proposal of the putative nurture-of-violence in every young male as explanation of anything regarding the issue of what grown adult men are like and their comportment therewith to be as offensive if not in fact more fatuous than a proposal that rape constitutes a 'successful reproductive strategy.' The least you could have done in response to that latter assertion might have been to point out that impulsive behaviour of whatever sort and 'strategy' might not belong in the same phrase. But you were too busy to notice the obvious then, being in your ongoing crusade that sex/gender behaviour or even actual sex/gender self is 99% nurture, only one percent due to what was between our legs (and even more important, the concommitant endocrine system thereby) as we came out of the womb.

I honestly do not know how you have come to such a stance as being so oblivious to nature, ALL of nature and how it works, to such extent that you have taken position against it.

If you wish to delude yourself into thinking that your attraction to the story of the twin pre-school aged boys of whom one pronounced himself to be a girl, subsequently verified and found to be in concurrence by his male boy brother, to be much more than safe distance paedophilia then carry on. But taking various and sundry isolated cases as some 'proof' that we are only as much girl or as only much boy as society tells us we are, aside from being unconscionably unfair to all involved, is nothing less than a refutation of nature and all of evolution.

I much admire you as a person, and your better way with words are always appreciated here (considering as in contrast to my way with words, please don't take that as faint praise), as well as your insight on many things.

So then let me just quit pointing out flaws (as I so presume) and just explain the situation here. I think I might have been born ~ 6,000 years too late or 2,000 years too early, I'm not sure which. I attune to nature noticeably more than most. "Kids and pets" type, more than I wish. If I am in the middle of a crowd of 1,000 people, some dog or cat or small child or beggar or drunkard will just show up, come to me, and ignore everybody else, as if none else existed. I have made friends with (they with me, actually) and been in near commune with feral cats more than I knew possible.

Male/female social norms, consideration for each other, boundaries of behaviour, finding common cause in consideration of food and shelter, etc., and that other little item, reproduction, are part and parcel of everything witnessed in nature (such observation not just limited to feral cats, please understand). Male elephants and male lions will fight to serious harm or even death over reproductive issues, even without being trained from birth any differently than their sisters. Ever notice that? We can't even propose the generally (and being who they are and how they survive, necessarily) aggressive nature of lions as explanation for male lion behaviour, anymore than we could explain the herbivore elephants doing likewise while in must. They all had very good mothers and very good sisters, and some nice brothers too.

There exists what humans propose to call 'homosexual behaviour' in nature on a regular basis in some species, while waiting on the real thing. But they are all raised the same way, and they grow up to be adult males or females in any event.

Whenever human females and human males decide to give up their notion of conquest and empire and slavery, all of which still exist in abundance, then humans might eventually reduce incidence of rape to a level beneath what actually occurs in nature.

We have a long way to go yet.

PS

Rape may not be a good thing (fully agreed here, we presume ourselves to be civilized, after all) , and occurs less in nature, the cross definition of such not always being entirely applicable. But let's address the issue of queens (and princesses and 'commoner' women) being attracted to the warrior king that killed more men than others and won the crown, moreso than the farmer, before we get all into this modern notion of how boys are raised differently than girls and are even more induced to violence. If we propose that males are more induced to violence, that could be no less than acknowledging that females are more attracted to it. Attraction to the product of violence and spoils of war play a part here, lest it might have escaped notice. Cleopatra knew the game.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/19/2012 12:12:53 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 132

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 6:34:27 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

xxsve if you are going to insist on posting the offensive and ridiculous claim that rape is a "successful reproductive strategy", you might explain how male-on-male rape or male-on-child (of any gender) rape can be seen as "successful reproductive strategies"?

If you are unable to explain this apparent conundrum, could you please consign your absurd guess/opinion to the nearest trash can permanently. You will be doing yourself and the world a favour by doing so.

Confusion.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 133

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 6:46:05 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

I lost a few thousand words to an accident midway through.

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 134

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 6:50:37 AM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

rape, although I proved it to be a successful means of reproduction,

From page 1 of this thread:

quote:

...the VA's preliminary findings from its sexual trauma survey of 1.67 million veterans enrolled in 1,300 VA health care facilities across the country.

...While the VA survey counted 22,486 cases of male sexual trauma, it also showed 19,463 cases of female sexual trauma

How's male-on-male sexual assault advancing reproduction?

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 135

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 6:59:39 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

In your opinion, why have I not turned out a rapist?

I got the impression that Tweakabelle was talking about the necessary conditions for being a rapist, not the sufficient conditions.

quote:

What is the distinguishing factor in your model? The outcome predictor?

Whenever this question arises, I'm taken straight back to the the bar scene in the 1988 film The Accused in which Jodie Foster's character, Sarah Tobias, is gang-raped. When the film came out, there were misgivings in many quarters about the scene: many argued that it would work as a turn-on for potential rapists. And, clearly, Jonathan Kaplan, the director, wanted men to be turned on by Sarah's appearance and behaviour as she does her sexy gyrations to music before the rape takes place.

For me, Kaplan's purpose was quite clear: it would serve to 'sort the men from the boys' amongst the film's viewers. I would say that it would only be possible to be turned on by the scene if, when watching it, a male could 'switch off' whatever it is in him that can hear Sarah's (to me, horrific) cries and see the look on her face. (Foster acted her part very, very well.) The only other possibility I can imagine is that a male could get turned on because he never had anything in him that needed 'switching off' in the first place. So, in short: yes, intuitively, I'd agree with Tweakabelle that the key factor - the 'sufficient condition' for a rapist is that ability to de-empathise with another's feelings, or (presumably more rarely) not to be much given to empathising anyway.

The scene is available on YouTube. I've no idea how frequently it's downloaded on YouTube for wanking purposes alone. One dreads to think. But one other factor strikes me as important here: the matter of just how many ever have fantasies about raping versus the number of those who don't. I don't. It's not in my nature. (Thinking of some of the arguments in this thread, perhaps I lack something 'naturally male' and should troubled by that. Heh.) Yet, I know men who do but who've never raped. Fine. A fantasy is not a reality. I'd like to know what the latter felt, though, when watching that scene.

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(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 136

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 7:59:53 AM

Edwynn

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When the universities quit cheering for Alexander the Great, quit cheering for Rome, quit cheering for Charlemagne, quit cheering for other-like mass slaughter, quit cheering for British empire, and when the twits over here (and elsewhere) quit cheering for every stupid invasion that still transpires, and when we have gone beyond the best selling video games played by both boys and girls being all seriously focused on war and battle and nihilism ...

Then I might worry about who is cheering about a rape scene in a disposable movie or not.

Pardon my lack of focus or sense of urgency on that particular item.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/19/2012 8:02:45 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 137

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 8:31:24 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

When the universities quit cheering for Alexander the Great, quit cheering for Rome, quit cheering for Charlemagne, quit cheering for other-like mass slaughter, quit cheering for British empire, and when the twits over here (and elsewhere) quit cheering for every stupid invasion that still transpires, and when we have gone beyond the best selling video games played by both boys and girls being all seriously focused on war and battle and nihilism ...

Then I might worry about who is cheering about a rape scene in a disposable movie or not.

Pardon my lack of focus or sense of urgency on that particular item.

I don't get your point, Edwynn. Are you saying that we shouldn't be considering this matter on this thread because there are much more important ones that we should be discussing?

ETA The Accused got five stars - 95% - from Rotten Tomatoes. Not really a 'disposable' film in the critics' estimation.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 2/19/2012 8:35:11 AM >

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Post #: 138

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 8:42:01 AM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

rape, although I proved it to be a successful means of reproduction,

From page 1 of this thread:

quote:

...the VA's preliminary findings from its sexual trauma survey of 1.67 million veterans enrolled in 1,300 VA health care facilities across the country.

...While the VA survey counted 22,486 cases of male sexual trauma, it also showed 19,463 cases of female sexual trauma

How's male-on-male sexual assault advancing reproduction?

You have to understand a few things about biology.

1.) it operates largely on a sub or unconscious level - I use the term "strategy" loosely, in the biological sense: "a practice that get results", not, "a deliberate tactic". Most mammals don't associate sexual activity with reproduction on any conscious level anyone is aware of, they don't have the cerebral complexity to do that, not even all humans do, there is at least one tribe (sorry I haven't found it yet on google) that is blissfully unaware of any connection between pregnancy and coitus.

2.) as a result of the above, sex an reproduction are linked biologically, but delinked socially - the fact that coitus does result in reproduction under optimal circumstances means that traits that led to coitus being performed under those circumstances are more likely to be propagated than those that do not.

In spite of this, we have homosexuals, male and female, masturbation, birth control, anal and oral sex, etc., etc., and you might as well ask why these things appear to be biologically perpetuated in spite of the fact they do not lead to reproduction - it's complicated and I went into a lot of this already in the other thread, but a short answer is that sperm loses half it's motility after about 72 hours, and males who ejaculate at least once every Three days are going to be more fertile, increasing their chances of impregnating a female when they do connect.

The other factor is, that sex is also used as an act of dominance, and males of most mammalian species routinely mount each other, and here is where your "rape is violence" meme is absolutely true, although technically, submissive postures are in fact a way of preventing violence from escalating to lethal levels - it's made explicit in sports like ultimate fighting where one of the combatants can "tap out" or the fight ended by referee before they suffer permanent injury or death, which would be bad for group fitness, maiming or losing an otherwise fit male over some relatively minor hierarchy jockeying that often goes back and forth anyway - in ultimate fighting, ironically, the absolute best position you can be in, is to have the other guys "back", i.e., mounted from behind and able to control him without exposing yourself to his hands, feet, teeth, etc.

So basically, if it ever results in reproduction at all, it's successful, whether it's intentional or no - i.e., even if it is a crime of violence, it is also a reproductive strategy if reproduction occurs with any frequency at all.

It is not the most successful strategy by a long shot, the children are often discriminated against socially, the women themselves may be thrown out (Somalia, where rape is used as a terror tactic, and a means of blackmailing women), and social connections have a lot to do with optimizing the reproductive potential of those children in their turn.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/19/2012 8:44:09 AM >

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(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 139

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did Th... - 2/19/2012 8:52:18 AM

xssve

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It was a very successful strategy for Genghis Khan, but then he typically killed all the adult males before raping the women, somewhat mitigating the potential for social reprisal.

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