Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella

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fucktoyprincess -> Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 1:34:51 PM)
Bear with me on this, because it was difficult for me to find a succinct way to describe the following. Although BDSM is a wide umbrella, it appears to me that many people within the community have certain pre-conceived notions of what is both authentic and extreme in the BDSM world. For me, authenticity and extremeness can come in many guises. And all of these different aspects ought to be respected. I really feel that no one aspect should be considered more authentic or necessarily more extreme. What do I mean by this? For example, I am currently a bedroom-only submissive/bottom, and my primary play interests are s&m combined with some elements of D/s. At times, I correspond with people who feel that I am a "very-light" player, or somehow lack authenticity as a submissive, because I restrict D/s to the bedroom. But, by the same token, I have had Dominants who I have had relationships with tell me that I could withstand more pain (within the activities I engage in) than anyone else they had played with. I am also bisexual, and not averse to multi-player play or poly relationship dynamics. So along certain dimensions, I am actually more "extreme" if you will. But then there are other dimensions, like control, where I readily admit, I am not interested in anything extreme. D/s is restricted primarily to the bedroom, and I have no personal interest in M/s or other more extreme control dynamics. I also know, for example, gay bottoms, who are heavily into pain play of a sort that I have no interest in, but have zero interest in any type of power dynamics. I know female submissives who self-describe as slaves, who have zero interest in bisexuality, or pain, but who are interested in more extreme power dynamics than I would ever be interested in personally. So while their power dynamic might be more "extreme", other aspects of their play are not as extreme as what I do. I also encounter Dominants who are into control, but really not into administering pain (or vice versa). In other words, many different types of people with many different types of interests, each authentic and extreme in their own way. So my point is, that I respect any possible approach as being "authentic". "Authenticity" is really what BDSM means to each of us, and the sincerity with which we seek that out. No one approach is necessarily more "authentic" than another. I also readily accept that "extremeness" depends on what aspect of BDSM you are looking at. Some people are very extreme in the dimension that they seek, but not interested at all in other dimensions. No one aspect of BDSM has a monopoly on "extremeness". (I found the terms authentic and extreme to best describe what I am getting at, but would welcome other terminology suggestions.) Anyway, just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on this based on their own experiences and journey through the BDSM world.

poise -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 1:48:20 PM)
No matter how big the umbrella may be, I feel no obligation to make myself fit in under it in order to appease the masses. My focus remains on continuing to meet his expectations of me within our relationship...and the rest of the world fades away.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 1:52:41 PM)
I am with you, FTP. This isn't a competition, and while there are arenas where protocols are heavy, we are just people relating to each other. I don't feel the need to do some crazy thing so I can be the "most extreme" sadist on the block. I do the things that please me, and sometimes the things that please my playmates. I've always been an edge person, and until fairly recently, I fit in the bdsm zone just fine. Is the desire to "fit" part of the urge to make what we do somehow mainstream?

lizi -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 1:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: poise No matter how big the umbrella may be, I feel no obligation to make myself fit in under it in order to appease the masses. My focus remains on continuing to meet his expectations of me within our relationship...and the rest of the world fades away. This pretty much hits it for me. Once upon a time I guess I might have given some thought to what others thought as I wanted to be taken seriously, but once I met my Dominant and decided to stick with him, I find that kink is pretty much our ball of wax to do with what we want. I find myself unconcerned with where we fall on the Kink O Meter. He and I are more of a couple than anything, we'd define ourselves as being with each other first and as kinky second. We've just never had a strong identification with BDSM being our everything in the relationship. It's not like we turn it on and off, it's always there, but it's just kind of unobtrusive. If someone finds that unauthentic and not extreme enough I'm cool with it.

myrgth -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 2:42:43 PM)
I don't think it's a matter of authenticity or extremeness so much as compatibility. You want what you want. You will encounter more people who don't want what you want than you will who do want what you want. Some will be judgmental and say that their way is the only way. Most will just chalk it up to non-compatibility. For me, someone who is a 'bedroom only' submissive would hold zero appeal. Do I think they are less authentic? Well, less than what? I don't really care how someone defines or labels themselves. Once ascertaining we aren't compatible, what more is there to talk about? Why care what someone who isn't compatible with me thinks? I would say that those who aren't interested in what you have to offer should have no bearing on what it is you seek or how you feel about what you want.

kitkat105 -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 2:55:48 PM)
I've thought a bit about this subject myself since this is still new for me. I agree with poise though, what makes it authentic for me is what we are doing works for my Dom & I. Of course, we have personal goals we want to complete and different things to experience, but this is true for our relationship - not just what we want D/s wise. At the same time I think of the BDSM umbrella is very diverse. I feel you aren't expected to behave a certain way, perform certain things.. it's more flexible.

NiceButMeanGirl -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 3:09:41 PM)
I used to feel like what I do had to fit in with what everyone else is doing, but there is no "everyone else is doing." Everyone is doing different things all under the BDSM umbrella. Now I feel as long as what I'm doing is working for me and mine & it's not hurting anyone else, great. I'm more extreme than some and less extreme than others, but it's all good. NBMG

IrishMist -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 3:16:39 PM)
quote: I feel no obligation to make myself fit in under it in order to appease the masses. This is pretty much how I see it also. I have never, and will never 'fit' under what many refer to as 'the umbrella of BDSM'. What I do, though, FITS ME perfectly. And that's really all that matters.

Missokyst -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 3:19:09 PM)
I don't think I was concerned about how other people viewed me since my early teens. Personally I think people tend to be ok with who they are until they look around and judge themselves by other people's standards. And when you add social networking, via forums, kinky groups, or connections, suddenly they have to question ... or defend, their own authenticity. Security is in knowing who you are. When you are content in that it is easier to dismiss negative comments about whether or not you are a real "whatever"

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 3:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I am with you, FTP. This isn't a competition, and while there are arenas where protocols are heavy, we are just people relating to each other. I don't feel the need to do some crazy thing so I can be the "most extreme" sadist on the block. I do the things that please me, and sometimes the things that please my playmates. I've always been an edge person, and until fairly recently, I fit in the bdsm zone just fine. Is the desire to "fit" part of the urge to make what we do somehow mainstream? Okay, thanks for articulating this in a slightly different way. This helps me think through this. I think that, yes, I feel it should not be a competition. That we should each have a healthy respect for each other's kinks and how each of us chooses to approach them. But you raise a question about whether the desire to "fit" is part of an urge to make what we do mainstream. I don't know for me if it has to do with the mainstream aspect, so much as that I like to think that there such a thing as the BDSM community. Of course, as I think on this more, perhaps we are not so much a community as a loose coalition of somewhat like-minded thinkers. Perhaps I am expecting too much to expect the notion of "community" around something as broad as BDSM? To everyone so far who has expressed the sentiment that what matters to you is how you and your partner define it, I don't disagree with that sentiment. Obviously one way to deal with judgments or criticisms or competition of others is to ignore them. But I guess I was trying to think of it more broadly, as to whether there is some core of community that we should consider relevant, and whether as a community we should encourage mutual respect of different approaches. Of course, this takes me back to my previous paragraph of whether there is a community or not. Again, just thinking through this as we go here....

Whenready -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 4:32:40 PM)
It's authentic if it works for you and your partner(s) - and you are honest with each other. It's extreme if it - whatever "it" is borders one partner's comfort zone. Extreme is not necessarily good or bad. In general I think one should respect the opinions of others. What is right for A and B may however be disastrous for C and D. Respecting opinions may oil the social engine, but can be help OR hindrance to the individual dynamic. Some areas will have a "community". These fora have regulars, some of whom know others in "real life", and who may be a community. What "the community" thinks matters less than what the partners think, and probably only matters if manners are poor.

JeffBC -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 7:01:39 PM)
Authentic: There are two different definitions of "authentic" that might apply here. If you're talking authentic as in true to one's self, then that has nothing to do with BDSM at all. If you're talking "authentic BDSM" then I think the most authentic is SM play... hence, you're pretty much right at the root of it all with your bedroom only play. I'm the opposite side from you. Carol and I have a steep authority dynamic but not much kink. Insofar as "extreme", that's largely a word that people use to feel good about themselves. I wouldn't even know how to summarize how extreme Carol and I are except, maybe, to say that "We're extremely in love." Mostly, I think your hanging around with the wrong crowd if this is how they are making judgements about you.

DesFIP -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 7:02:20 PM)
To be sarcastic, authentic is what I do, extreme is what anybody else does that I don't. Edgeplay which I prefer as a term to extreme, varies from one to the other. Anything beyond your comfort zone is edgy for you. The fact that the next person yawns at that is immaterial. Authentic I hope is what we all strive for, being self aware and self actualized and honest about it to those we are in intimate relationships with.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 8:41:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Authentic: There are two different definitions of "authentic" that might apply here. If you're talking authentic as in true to one's self, then that has nothing to do with BDSM at all. If you're talking "authentic BDSM" then I think the most authentic is SM play... hence, you're pretty much right at the root of it all with your bedroom only play. I'm the opposite side from you. Carol and I have a steep authority dynamic but not much kink. Insofar as "extreme", that's largely a word that people use to feel good about themselves. I wouldn't even know how to summarize how extreme Carol and I are except, maybe, to say that "We're extremely in love." Mostly, I think your hanging around with the wrong crowd if this is how they are making judgements about you. Actually, I was trying to say that no one aspect of BDSM is more authentic than anything else. I don't believe s&m is more authentic than other aspects of BDSM. I really think authentic BDSM is simply what each of us makes of it. It is our own definition of our sets of kinks and interests that defines our "authentic BDSM". So I would say how you are your partner define BDSM for you is equally as authentic. Hope that clarifies. No one in "my crowd" is judging me. They all know me and we are all respectful of each other's interests and kinks. This is an attitude that I come across more from people who I encounter on the Internet (particularly when searching for partners) who seem to have what I consider biased senses of "authenticity" and "extremeness" that to me are not respectful of the wide range that BDSM necessarily entails. In other words, I sometimes encounter people who feel their authentic BDSM ought to define another's definition of authentic BDSM, and that if one's definition differs, that it means your interests are not "authentic" and your approach is not "extreme". In almost a decade of being on the Internet in a variety of BDSM sites, I would say it is an attitude that comes up repeatedly.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 9:02:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP To be sarcastic, authentic is what I do, extreme is what anybody else does that I don't. Edgeplay which I prefer as a term to extreme, varies from one to the other. Anything beyond your comfort zone is edgy for you. The fact that the next person yawns at that is immaterial. Authentic I hope is what we all strive for, being self aware and self actualized and honest about it to those we are in intimate relationships with. DesFIP, my use of "extreme" may be a poor choice of word. By that I don't mean too extreme or edgy. Using s&m and power exchange to exemplify - I was just trying to suggest that expressing an interest in either s&m or power exchange does not imply anything one way or the other about "extremeness" or "intensity" within that interest. In other words I could be a "light" s&m player or an "intense" s&m player (based on the types of things I do, or due to my pain threshold) or I could be a "light" power exchange player (bedroom only) or an "intense" power exchange player (M/s or CNC). But specifically, what I was trying to highlight, is that being light in one dimension does not imply anything about whether I might be light or intense on another dimension i.e., dimensions like s&m are completely separate from power exchange - one can be light on one, and very intense on the other, or vice versa, or possibly intense or both. Maybe "intensity" would be a better word for what I'm trying to convey.

RaspberryLemon -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 9:31:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess So my point is, that I respect any possible approach as being "authentic". "Authenticity" is really what BDSM means to each of us, and the sincerity with which we seek that out. No one approach is necessarily more "authentic" than another. I also readily accept that "extremeness" depends on what aspect of BDSM you are looking at. Some people are very extreme in the dimension that they seek, but not interested at all in other dimensions. No one aspect of BDSM has a monopoly on "extremeness". (I found the terms authentic and extreme to best describe what I am getting at, but would welcome other terminology suggestions.) Very well said, and I agree with you. It is all subjective, and as long as one is being true to themselves and their needs/desires, their approach is authentic in my mind. I do feel like there is occasionally an air of "competition" among people discussing BDSM, constantly comparing themselves to each other and trying to one-up everyone with their "extremeness" and "authenticity," and it's a shame that some people feel the need to do this for whatever reason, because in reality nobody is overall right and nobody is overall wrong--it's whatever works for them specifically and how they want to define it. quote: ORIGINAL: poise No matter how big the umbrella may be, I feel no obligation to make myself fit in under it in order to appease the masses. My focus remains on continuing to meet his expectations of me within our relationship...and the rest of the world fades away. This is how I see it as well. As long as I am living up to his expectations and he is living up to mine and we are both satisfied and successfully happy with each other, it matters not what outside people think about it. quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Perhaps I am expecting too much to expect the notion of "community" around something as broad as BDSM? I believe you may be doing so. I don't believe BDSM is so much a "community" as it is a common interest or aspect of many different people. To give an example: dog owners. Dog owners are not really a community but they all share something in common--they have dogs. And they all do things differently. Some may have big dogs, small dogs, one dog, multiple dogs, pet dogs, service dogs, working dogs, farm dogs, etc. and they all have different views on how to handle, train, and take care of their dogs--no one is necessarily "right" here, just different and as long as the dog owner is treating the animal humanely, no one is really "wrong" either. I view BDSM as the same--it is merely a term to describe a common interest/aspect of certain people who all treat this interest/aspect in their own way and do their own thing based on what works best for them. :)

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/18/2012 11:37:17 PM)
I don't really have any desire to fit in except with the person who's a good fit for me. I don't have any desire to act like "ahh look how cool I am" or "don't do what I do if you aren't awesome enough." Sometimes it seems like there's a lot of that. An element of elitism that I can't relate to and don't respect. That's just me. I do believe very much in authenticity, and I like to think that everyone has a chance to find what that means to them.

kalikshama -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/19/2012 6:36:45 AM)
quote: This is an attitude that I come across more from people who I encounter on the Internet (particularly when searching for partners) who seem to have what I consider biased senses of "authenticity" and "extremeness" that to me are not respectful of the wide range that BDSM necessarily entails. Just consider it one of many filters and move on.

xssve -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/19/2012 6:57:56 AM)
quote: Actually, I was trying to say that no one aspect of BDSM is more authentic than anything else. I don't believe s&m is more authentic than other aspects of BDSM. I really think authentic BDSM is simply what each of us makes of it. It is our own definition of our sets of kinks and interests that defines our "authentic BDSM". So I would say how you are your partner define BDSM for you is equally as authentic. Hope that clarifies. Plenty of people more into the BD and not so much into the SM - I'm not particularly sadistic, but I go with the flow if I'm with a masochistic bottom - when it comes to sadism I'm much more into psychological sadism and mind control than inflicting physical pain, and I think that can probably get way more extreme than anything physical (within SSC bounds) as it's harder to judge just where the psychological breaking point is - but it isn't any more "authentic", it's just what I like. The cult of authenticity is essentially a symptom of narcissism, it's another external reinforcement of identity - we live in a narcissistic culture, so it's no wonder people are always seeking this sort of reinforcement, you just have to swim against the current a bit, and know that being authentic to ones self is the only real measure of authenticity: most external measures are arbitrary points of fashion, a moving target that cannot ever be pinned down in a hard and fast manner because they are necessarily abstractions without logical limits as such - that's why the extreme debate perpetually butts up and bumps against just this side of vore, because that where the biological and legal limits take over - there is no SSC way of going past that point other than as pure, abstract fantasy. So that is your basic effective range: pick a spot on the curve and dig - who is it you need to impress exactly?

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Authenticity and Extremeness Under the BDSM Umbrella (2/19/2012 7:47:43 AM)
Thanks everyone for your posts. LillyBoPeep, you mentioned the word "elitism" and xssve also mention "narcissistic" - yes, I think along with competitiveness, these are also aspects of the attitude that often irritate. And kalikshama, yes, it has been a filter, and for the most part I do ignore, but every now and again it is annoying to deal with the "elitist" perspective. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Plenty of people more into the BD and not so much into the SM - I'm not particularly sadistic, but I go with the flow if I'm with a masochistic bottom - when it comes to sadism I'm much more into psychological sadism and mind control than inflicting physical pain, and I think that can probably get way more extreme than anything physical (within SSC bounds) as it's harder to judge just where the psychological breaking point is - but it isn't any more "authentic", it's just what I like. Okay, this may be hitting upon (pun intended) why I experience the attitude from others more often. If I had to pick between s&m and power exchange - I probably lean ever so slightly more to the bottom camp - but I wouldn't describe myself as only a bottom because there are many aspects of D/s that I enjoy. I achieve subspace through pain, so pain is a critical component of BDSM for me. But, of course, there are many here who are like you - really more into BD/power exchange and really not so much into administering pain. And the reaction I get from some of these types of Dominants is that somehow a more intense version of power exchange should "compensate" for lack of intensity on the s&m front - but for me, personally, it does not. The dimensions are different, and I need someone who really is into s&m in order to satisfy that dimension of my interests (this is in part due to my pain threshold - someone who is not into s&m usually can't go the distance necessary - it becomes something they "have" to do instead of something they enjoy doing - and that doesn't really work for me as a dynamic. I work best with people who are truly into the s&m aspect - who are feeding off of the activity and the reactions - that is part of the build up.) What I may be bumping up into is that many more men on sites like this are really looking for D/s and are not actually into s&m or if they are into s&m they are also into very intense power exchange - so then ego, narcissism, competition, elitism enters the equation, and they have to suggest that I am somehow lacking in authenticity because I am "light" on D/s but more intense on s&m. Oh good heavens. I am starting to realize that I am dealing with the same thing that is being discussed on other threads right now. Men who can't take no for an answer and have to leave the female feeling badly for rejecting them. i.e., if there is lack of compatibility then it is the submissive's fault somehow - her interpretation of BDSM, her interests, etc., are somehow not properly defined. Because yes, many who are experienced feel that their definition should somehow be the correct one for me, too, even though I've been at these for a decade, and at this point, after many different types of experiences, have a very clear sense of what I like, and what I have zero interest in. At the end of the day, really, it is all about being respectful of the choices that people make. At my age and level of experience, I would just like Dominants to be respectful of my version of BDSM, and not assume that because of my stated role and gender that somehow I either don't know what I want, or have made a mistake defining what I like or that I need a man/Dominant to help me define what it is that I want. Another word comes to mind. Arrogant.

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