RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (Full Version)

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BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/8/2012 1:58:49 AM)

I am uncertain of the wisdom, i.e. prudence, of sharing with all of you a story from my life. I do so at least for what I believe to be a good cause. I hedged not to indicate doubt on my part, but to be polite. Technically, to do this is to commit an act of moral contradiction, i.e. hypocrisy.

A few hours ago, I went to a penance service. I went to confession already, but I did not know it was the day they were holding the penance service. It was nice. I put it, "The penance service was nice and was worth going to even though I did not need to per se. All that sin being forgiven in one place at one time. It was like rose petals." Anyway, I asked a young woman that was in line in front of me, having thought of something humorous and wanting to share it with someone, Is it a sin to cut in line? There was some confusion earlier concerning where the end of the line was. I explained to her that I was not accusing her of it. Since I did not know, I was at risk. This incident reminded me of a childhood memory of mine.

I was at Disneyland, it was at the end of the day, and soon I would have to leave. The line around the Matterhorn was long, it wrapped around the Matterhorn more than once, and I had never gotten the chance to ride the Matterhorn. It was my last chance. Near the beginning of the line, I asked a couple of girls if I could cut in line. They agreed. It made for a pleasant memory. A worldly/materialistic interpretation of law would say I had committed a wrong or if not a wrong, in some sense a wrong. If this were something I was inclined to do, I would agree. I am not inclined to do such things, but that day I was unusually wise. If I had not done so, I would not have this memory that I have today. My conscience is clear having wronged no one including myself. The distinction I am drawing here when I wrote including myself is significant. Though I do not feel that it is usually best not to cut in line, I did once. Not only did I do it once I am unrepentant. Technically speaking, this makes me a hypocrite.

What some may not understand is the concept of mitigating circumstances and such is other worldly. I will be getting around to posting something on the law of unintended consequences soon.



MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/8/2012 2:39:07 AM)

Let me clarify my problem with the santa thing. Since santa was brought to you by the dutch I should know the concept of it.
Sinterklaas its called here wich comes from the real historical figure sint nicolas. It's not to learn our children a lesson about lies. It is to instill fear in children. If they do bad they dont get presents. Even worse in holland when a child is bad he gets whipped, he's put in a sack and taken to spain. And believe me children really do fear sinterklaas here, its been tested. Its all about fear, just like we have to fear God.
I have to question my own hypocrisy and double standards always. But why I give this example is this. It is like mass psychosis in this case. We all play along with the game. And thats where hypocrisy becomes real dangerous. The acceptance of a lie by the masses.
Although santa might be percieved as innocent, I dont. I know what it has done to me. It is a reason I started to question the honesty of my parents and soforth religion and God. Especially in the young formative years of a child. Once your character sets, it's near to impossible ever to change that. In that respect I view the religious God as a bad parent. Where my god nature is not bothered with ethics.
Nature just is and needs to have a healthy fear to respect it. Nature gave us tools to decide what is right and wrong. And it's up to us to decide. This makes life simple, where religion makes for so much contradiction.

[image]http://www.mommyonline.nl/images/SINT_poster1.jpg[/image]

PS that was an interesting post about the pope. Love it.



Kainundeva -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/8/2012 2:41:12 AM)

Immanuel Kant made it clear:
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.

and for all men, this is most important for law makers, no?
if one can´t do that, he should stay out of politics.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 2:25:20 AM)

http://kurtcobainssuicidenote.com/kurt_cobains_suicide_note.html

Kurt Cobain: It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun.

BenevolentM: You sound like a person having a problem with moral contradiction. You are in need of a lecture from me concerning the important role moral contradiction plays in our lives. You need to embrace your inner hypocrite.

Kurt Cobain: I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

BenevolentM: Again, you are indicating that you have a problem with moral contradiction.

Kurt Cobain: On our last 3 tours, I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Pisces, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

BenevolentM: See what I wrote earlier on white magick on page 13 post 260 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4054385.

Kurt Cobain: I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter who reminds me too much of what i used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Frances becoming the miserable, self-destructive, death rocker that I've become.

BenevolentM: You left a beautiful wife and daughter behind? How about this: Quit the music scene, go to Church, and find the real Jesus. Maybe He will be kind enough to kick your ass and show you the true nature of the force.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 4:07:36 AM)

Part 1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani page 14 post 262 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4054424

I have to question my own hypocrisy and double standards always.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kainundeva page 14 post 263 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4054427

Immanuel Kant made it clear:
Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.


quote:

Immanuel Kant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant

It always remains a scandal of philosophy and universal human reason that the existence of things outside us ... should have to be assumed merely on faith, and that if it occurs to anyone to doubt it, we should be unable to answer him with a satisfactory proof.


MrBukani, is it not true that you secretly own a copy of Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant in your private library? Is this not the book you read a child at night by the light of a flashlight?

quote:

Immanuel Kant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant

Kant argued that experience is purely subjective without first being processed by pure reason. He also said that using reason without applying it to experience will only lead to theoretical illusions.


What I am objecting to is scientific puritanism. It is not altogether unhealthy to test ideas, but the schism between science and philosophy is unhealthy. Science needs to return home. The last part "He also said that using reason without applying it to experience will only lead to theoretical illusions." has some merit, but it is, how should I put this, dogmatic and replete with sweeping generalizations.

Part 2

Some fear is unfortunately necessary and unless you fear a thing, at least a little, how could it be said that you respect that thing? Could it be that things have gone past the optimal in the land of the Dutch? Shrugs. Just look how you turned out. Have things gone past the optimal here in the United States? You have to get righteous on people and little children on occasion. If you fail to do what is right, there is a bogey man worse than Sinterklaas.

The problem you face MrBukani is you are faced with something of a paradox. If you accept who you are and realize that you turned out pretty good, you are also going to have to accept how you were raised was not altogether bad.

As the Spanish Inquisition is concerned there is a tendency for women from Spain to show me a degree of deference not found elsewhere.

In the United States Southern Baptists it is said regard Catholics as nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites citing that we go to bingo night at Church "gamble", drink coffee, smoke, dance, etc. We even do things that are reminiscent of Goddess worship. You know, acting like a bunch of Pagans. So what is it with the Pope kind of saying indirectly, "You're right, I am Satan." Needless to say, the Church has balls.

The Church knows that it cannot fill the shoes of Christ. It cannot rule the world with the sort of perfection Christ will bring though it tries. Such things as the Inquisition were necessary because if you do not do what it takes to be King of the Hill, someone else is going to be the King of the Hill. It is survival of the fittest and in order to claim the prize that you are the fittest unfortunately implies having to do things you wish you never had to do. When Christ referred to Peter as Satan God gave the Church a free pass to do whatever it takes to survive in order to fulfill the mission that it was given to it by Christ.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 4:19:58 AM)

Concerning Joan of Arc

I would have begged that she be spared saying, "I need a wife! Give me a few minutes in her prison cell alone with her.", "I beg of you. It is God's will for you to be my wife. Marry me! The English know my reputation. They will know that you have been properly punished, but we will know secretly that what they believe to be true is untrue. They will say with glee, He will tame that witch! Joan in the name of God you saved a nation. Now in the name of God save a man. I come in the name of God."

Perhaps I should make it official. Though it may seem like a pointless gesture from across time Joan, Maid of Orléans, marry me.

Is it a sin to make a marriage proposal to a Catholic Saint across time and a continent?

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

The historian Kelly DeVries describes the period preceding her appearance in the following terms: "If anything could have discouraged her, the state of France in 1429 should have."


Nothing discourages me Maid of Orléans. Permit me to pay you this honor.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 4:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM page 14 post 265 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4055379

So what is it with the Pope kind of saying indirectly, "You're right, I am Satan."


It is also a celebration of a victory over Satan. I now sit in a chair that once belonged to Satan.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 7:12:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Maybe He will be kind enough to kick your ass and show you the true nature of the force.


I am not entirely happy with how I put this, since Christ is gentle to a fault, but He is also not a wimp and He does give instruction.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 7:18:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds post 26 from another thread http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4055311

3. The war on terror included acts of kidnapping and torture, which also destroyed our ability to claim the "moral high ground." America stopped being the good guys who accepted some problems in order to hold to our ideals, and became instead the nation equivalent of the preacher who decries immorality then is caught smoking meth with a gay prostitute. We chose to pursue the tactics of "the ends justify the means," and found ourselves in the land of hypocrisy.


Maybe hypocrisy is evil after all. As I've pointed out it isn't hypocrisy that is the problem it is 'the tactics of "the ends justify the means"'. Are the words of the preacher who decries immorality no longer valid because he was caught smoking meth with a gay prostitute? This is clearly an ad hominem. What SoftBonds wrote sounds great until you analyze it.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 10:31:35 AM)

Here is a book for me. "Holy Women" by Pope Benedict XVI (ISBN-13: 978-1612785103). The title says it all. The title is so simple and direct, unpretentious.

quote:

APOSTOLIC LETTER MULIERIS DIGNITATEM OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II ON THE DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN ON THE OCCASION OF THE MARIAN YEAR
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

... The Church gives thanks for all the manifestations of the feminine "genius" which have appeared in the course of history, in the midst of all peoples and nations; she gives thanks for all the charisms which the Holy Spirit distributes to women in the history of the People of God, for all the victories which she owes to their faith, hope and charity: she gives thanks for all the fruits of feminine holiness. ...



xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 10:46:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I am uncertain of the wisdom, i.e. prudence, of sharing with all of you a story from my life. I do so at least for what I believe to be a good cause. I hedged not to indicate doubt on my part, but to be polite. Technically, to do this is to commit an act of moral contradiction, i.e. hypocrisy.

A few hours ago, I went to a penance service. I went to confession already, but I did not know it was the day they were holding the penance service. It was nice. I put it, "The penance service was nice and was worth going to even though I did not need to per se. All that sin being forgiven in one place at one time. It was like rose petals." Anyway, I asked a young woman that was in line in front of me, having thought of something humorous and wanting to share it with someone, Is it a sin to cut in line? There was some confusion earlier concerning where the end of the line was. I explained to her that I was not accusing her of it. Since I did not know, I was at risk. This incident reminded me of a childhood memory of mine.

I was at Disneyland, it was at the end of the day, and soon I would have to leave. The line around the Matterhorn was long, it wrapped around the Matterhorn more than once, and I had never gotten the chance to ride the Matterhorn. It was my last chance. Near the beginning of the line, I asked a couple of girls if I could cut in line. They agreed. It made for a pleasant memory. A worldly/materialistic interpretation of law would say I had committed a wrong or if not a wrong, in some sense a wrong. If this were something I was inclined to do, I would agree. I am not inclined to do such things, but that day I was unusually wise. If I had not done so, I would not have this memory that I have today. My conscience is clear having wronged no one including myself. The distinction I am drawing here when I wrote including myself is significant. Though I do not feel that it is usually best not to cut in line, I did once. Not only did I do it once I am unrepentant. Technically speaking, this makes me a hypocrite.

What some may not understand is the concept of mitigating circumstances and such is other worldly. I will be getting around to posting something on the law of unintended consequences soon.

It's a consent issue: you obtained consent from the girls you cut in line with, but did you obtain consent from everybody behind them? I don't know about "a sin" but it's ethically ambiguous at best - how do you know there was not some other little boy who didn't cut, and never got to ride the Matterhorn because of your selfish act?




xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 10:54:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The following is an excerpt from a letter that I just wrote. I thought that everyone here might find what I wrote, at a minimum, entertaining and perhaps thought provoking.

quote:


... together with some other switches such as the /FU switch are likely needed. Someone had to have a sense of humor or lack thereof in naming that switch. ... I hate to make a Pinhead of the Hellraiser franchise analogy, but Microsoft is Pinhead. What is going to be the path of least resistance for you? Certainly, the web browser based technologies, but they will get you stuck in a kind of prison downstream.


Is sex, for example, evil? It certainly has an evil character that needs to be suppressed. The instruments of suppression that are available to man tend to be violent and I believe this is partially motivated by what xssve wrote in post 174 http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4046592: "... I don't think they were talking about a homeschoolers - 'Philosophy' literally means, 'a love of knowledge' it will not steer you wrong, although it is not for the many."

What xssve wrote has grave implications. Unless the people can be philosophers, they must be told the difference between right and wrong, forcefully. Is this not what many here are complaining about? Is this a deficit in the authorities or a deficit in people? It appears to me that there is plenty of sin to go around.

What is wrong with homeschoolers? Are not your views aristocratic in a sense similar to how the Church is aristocratic? You need a teacher with credentials in order to discover enlightenment? There is a strong tendency for this to be true. Abraham is remembered for being the father of the faith for a reason, not because his faith (closeness to God, not mere belief in God) was ordinary. Such men are rare. Typically, but not always a teacher is needed. You need someone to show you the way.

Moral ambiguity is the price of consciousness - to eat from the tree of knowledge is accept the burden of conscience.

Religious morality, at best, resolves these ambiguities through hypocrisy - it's not ok to abort babies, but it is ok to steal land from natives, enslave Africans, and bomb Muslims back into the stone age because they aren't Christian.

And, inevitably, it's ok to murder other Christians because they aren't the right sort of Christians.

It's just institutionalized hypocrisy, with Shaman service to salve your stunted conscience.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 11:23:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

It's a consent issue: you obtained consent from the girls you cut in line with, but did you obtain consent from everybody behind them? I don't know about "a sin" but it's ethically ambiguous at best - how do you know there was not some other little boy who didn't cut, and never got to ride the Matterhorn because of your selfish act?


Precisely my point xssve. I am claiming, NO SIN, not little sin. It cannot be justified by conventional means, that is to reason as men reason as opposed to how God reasons. According to how men reason common courtesy and politeness cannot be logically justified.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 11:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Moral ambiguity is the price of consciousness - to eat from the tree of knowledge is accept the burden of conscience.

Religious morality, at best, resolves these ambiguities through hypocrisy - it's not ok to abort babies, but it is ok to steal land from natives, enslave Africans, and bomb Muslims back into the stone age because they aren't Christian.

And, inevitably, it's ok to murder other Christians because they aren't the right sort of Christians.

It's just institutionalized hypocrisy, with Shaman service to salve your stunted conscience.


The Church is not God. It can only do so much. It can target certain activities that are especially important. Again, we are brushing against differences that you do not acknowledge, namely the difference between how men reason and how God reasons.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 12:27:32 PM)

This is shocking that you are unable to comprehend a simple thing such as this: The Church is not God. It can only do so much.



xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 4:02:22 PM)

quote:

This is shocking that you are unable to comprehend a simple thing such as this: The Church is not God. It can only do so much.


quote:

What is wrong with homeschoolers? Are not your views aristocratic in a sense similar to how the Church is aristocratic? You need a teacher with credentials in order to discover enlightenment? There is a strong tendency for this to be true. Abraham is remembered for being the father of the faith for a reason, not because his faith (closeness to God, not mere belief in God) was ordinary. Such men are rare. Typically, but not always a teacher is needed. You need someone to show you the way.
Uh huh. If not the church, then who?



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 5:31:11 PM)

Want to be my pupil? I did say I was a Brahman.



xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/9/2012 9:15:15 PM)

I'm a leg and ass man myself.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/10/2012 1:13:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I'm a leg and ass man myself.


The theory of evolution is not a logic. It is a suggestion.



xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy or Obsession (3/10/2012 6:30:37 AM)

A devastating rebuttal to be sure - how can I argue with that? [:D]



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