RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins?

RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/13/2012 9:26:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Don't you think religion held out an offer of an inherent meaning for life? Is that not the purpose of religion? According to the Bahá'i faith, the purpose of religion... is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men Thubten Yeshe, a Tibetan lama, has said that the purpose... of what we call religion is for us to understand the nature of our own psyche, our own mind, our own feelings In the Kriya Yoga of the Bhagavad Gita, the purpose of religion is union with God Etcetera... K. [:)] A smorgasbord of human beliefs then. It seems ironic that the Baha'i are so often persecuted, isn't it? The Thubten Yeshe seem closer to what I had in mind . . .with the addition of understanding our own being with respect to the world/universe. Thank you for informing me.

Kirata -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/13/2012 4:58:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML It seems ironic that the Baha'i are so often persecuted, isn't it? Mainly by the Shia in Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan, though they face difficulities in Indonesia and a few former Soviet republics as well, principally for the cause that they are viewed as apostates from Islam, and we know how popular that is in some quarters. K.

vincentML -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/14/2012 3:04:09 PM)
quote: I'd love to be responsible for the concept of 'something extra' but I'm not. It is a common concept in post-modernist perspectives. In this instance it refers to the difference between a human being and the sum of the physical elements that humans are comprised of. Well, my goodness, why is that uniquely a post-modernist concept? Obviously, there is a difference between being human and the sum total of the physical parts. I have alluded to this before. We have symbollic language; we create art, music, drama and science beyond ourselves; we contemplate our beginnings and the purpose of our lives; and we alone among the other animals it seems are aware of our mortality. So, how is it that post-modernism has a franchise on ‘something extra?’ quote: Classification is arbitrary and always fails to account for this something extra that eludes classification, identification and verification. I know you said you were not proposing a supernatural construct but I wonder if what you say here does not amount to something akin to a secular substitute for ‘soul?’ Having moved on from the Enlightenment does post-modernism yearn for ‘something extra’ to maintain the dignity and value of the individual in a culture-centric zeitgeist? Serious question; not meaning to be a smart-ass here. quote: Another very loose analogy is that it's the sum of unrealised potentials of humans (where unrealised means something closer to un-materialised, manifest at a psychic but not physical level) in a de Leuzian scheme of things. Interestingly, this perspective is generally consistent with a broader materialist approach. Sorry, I tried, but it will take me quite awhile to understand what Gilles Deleuze is about. quote: I hope that helps but I have a funny feeling it's all as clear as mud. [:D] I’m afraid it is. Ready to let this thread die. [:)]

GotSteel -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/14/2012 6:59:42 PM)
quote: I'd love to be responsible for the concept of 'something extra' but I'm not. It is a common concept in post-modernist perspectives. In this instance it refers to the difference between a human being and the sum of the physical elements that humans are comprised of. Once again, who's arguing that? Take something as simple as a clock, sticking the physical elements silicone, aluminium, plastic, quartz, etc. in a pile doesn't get you a device which tells time. So you could claim that even machines as simple as a clock are more than the sum of their physical elements but does anybody think that means that their watch works because it's haunted?

Kirata -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/15/2012 2:29:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel you could claim that even machines as simple as a clock are more than the sum of their physical elements but does anybody think that means that their watch works because it's haunted? Drawing an analogy between a human being and a clock sets a new record on the desperation scale. K.

GotSteel -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/18/2012 3:37:17 PM)
quote: So what is the 'something extra' that appears to distinguish humans and the human experience(s) I suggested previously? I don't know. Nor can I recall ever encountering any one who does know. Even a machine as simple as a pry bar has capabilities which exceed the inherent properties of iron and carbon. You see when that steel is made long-like suddenly the potential for useful mechanical advantage appears. Now I suppose I can't prove that a soul isn't involved in this process in some mysterious conspiracy theory-ish way but I can give a natural explanation which makes perfect sense and demonstrably works. The same is true for every machine out there. It's also true for every part of the body and mind which we understand. As such I was taught as a Freshman (over a decade ago at this point) that it's immensely reasonable to come to the conclusion that what we don't understand yet doesn't operate via some unique special exception, that it also works the same way as everything else, with organization giving rise to new properties. The discoveries about the brain we've made since then have supported and not challenged this theory; we haven't found the ectoplasm yet [sm=dunno.gif]

notxofast -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/30/2012 12:29:23 AM)
Did anyone watch the show, 'I Am My Own Twin'?................It was about people born with two completely different sets of DNA. So. Do THEY have two souls?? Because that's like twinning that never happened..........so maybe this was a split soul gone wrong, or God and Buddha got in a fight and Karma won but hell hath no fury like Gods when they duke it out and so this POOR kid was born with two completely different strands of D-N-A and........ [sm=argue.gif]...............[sm=binky.gif]

GotSteel -> RE: OK, if the soul begins from conception, then what about identical twins? (3/30/2012 2:59:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=18&page=21&journalID=62 Phenomenology and predictive factors of personality change due to traumatic brain injury (TBI) 6 to 24 months after injury was investigated in children, ages 5 to 14 years, enrolled from consecutive admissions and followed prospectively for 2 years. Injury and preinjury psychosocial variables were assessed. Personality change occurred in 13% of participants between 6 and 12 months after injury and 12% in the second year after injury. Severity of injury consistently predicted personality change, and preinjury adaptive function predicted personality change only in the second year postinjury. Lesions of the superior frontal gyrus were associated with personality change between 6 and 12 months following injury, after controlling for severity of injury and the presence of other brain lesions. Only lesions in the frontal lobe white matter were significantly related to personality change in the second year after injury. After childhood TBI, neural correlates of personality change evolve between 6 and 12 months and 12 to 24 months after injury. The data implicate the dorsal prefrontal cortex and frontal lobe white matter in the emergence of personality change involving the effortful or conscious regulation of affective states. Personality change due to traumatic brain injury (TBI) is the latest term given to a syndrome which has been recognized in one form or another for hundreds of years. What about personality change due to brain injuries? Is that one's soul making a run for it and God shoving a new one in to take it's place?

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