Are we a secular Nation...or not.

Are we a secular Nation...or not. (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 7:38:58 AM)
Rick Santurom's rise in the Republican nomination process is,for me troubling,seeing how his campaign is based in large part on his adherence to his own stated religious views. So are we to be a Nation with a secular government are or we heading towards government by a near theocratic President?

kdsub -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 7:54:31 AM)
Mike I think ones religion has always been a factor in Presidential elections. It is nothing new....remember Kennedy and how big it was for the first Catholic in office...and people were asking if the Pope would have a say in American policy? Religion is just a continuing political ploy...one of many reasons to vote for or against a candidate. Yes a religion may give an indication on how a person will filter world events and there is nothing wrong with knowing that. Say the person was an out and out atheist...would that not just be another factor in voting for or against. It is still the person and what they say and do...not the religion or lack of it that should and will make the difference. Butch

SoftBonds -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 7:55:25 AM)
The answer you get to this question depends on who you ask. In general, if you ask this question in the NorthEast or West, you will get a yes, if you ask this question in the South or non-city MidWest, you will get a lecture on how the founding fathers were all Christians and while they wanted freedom to choose any type of Christianity, that didn't mean anyone in the US could be a Muslim or Athiest... Then they will try to claim Thomas Jefferson wasn't a founding father if you point out his beliefs...

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:02:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Mike I think ones religion has always been a factor in Presidential elections. It is nothing new....remember Kennedy and how big it was for the first Catholic in office...and people were asking if the Pope would have a say in American policy? Religion is just a continuing political ploy...one of many reasons to vote for or against a candidate. Yes a religion may give an indication on how a person will filter world events and there is nothing wrong with knowing that. Say the person was an out and out atheist...would that not just be another factor in voting for or against. It is still the person and what they say and do...not the religion or lack of it that should and will make the difference. Butch Kennedy went out of his way to declare he was not running as the candidate to be a Catholic President...as a matter of fact Kennedy's big test was to convince the voters not to hold his Catholicism against him. Santurom ,is in fact,running as the Catholic candidate and putting forth his theological beliefs front and center. If that doesn't scare you Butch than you are seeing things different than me [8\|] Cause the way I view Santurom's candidacy I am scared ,and scared shitless

kdsub -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:11:11 AM)
lol...Oh he scares me alright...but not because of his religion...but because of his stated stands on issues. I see nothing wrong with saying” I am a Catholic...or Mormon“…or any other religion. Part of the political process is getting to know a candidate… his views both personal and professional and his religion is important to him and many others. It still comes down to his policy…what it will be and does it match the majority thinking. Otherwise if the majority thinks his religious affiliation is important then so be it… it is the will of the majority…He will still have to work within the frame work of the Constitution. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:18:22 AM)
The Constitution is indeed our best defense against a wack job gaining the Oval Office...but tell me how well did it protect us against the Bush(the lesser) agenda ?

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:22:47 AM)
Rick Santurom on contraception's " Contraception's are not okay" Santuroms money man on the same subject .." Contraceptives ,my gosh it's so inexpensive...back in my day the gals put it between their knees and it wasn't that costly"....(paraphrased a bit,sorry)

DarkSteven -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:35:54 AM)
We live in odd times. Obama is kind of a blend in many ways, in a country that values simplicity. His religion is technically Christian, but with rumors that he is a closet Muslim or an atheist. Nothing surprising - he also is rumored to be born outside the US, not a citizen, etc. His religion is just as whispered against as the rest of him. I suspect that him being a Christian but not a strong one sits just fine with his target constituency. While I'm not an expert on Christianity, my understanding is that many Protestants feel that Catholicism is not "real" Christianity. Odd that half the GOP field identifies as Catholic (I'm not sure WHAT Paul's religious affiliation is), and a quarter as Mormon. Santorum is trying to represent himself as a good Christian, and Obama as a closet godless Communist who portrays himself as a Christian. Santorum needs every vote he can get and is trying to pander to the Christian wing of the GOP. Note that if he does become thew GOP candidate, he's going to have to mute his stands in the general.

Laymedown60 -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:39:10 AM)
sorry my puppet

kdsub -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:40:13 AM)
62,000,000 plus Americans did not think Bush was a wack job...although I personally think he was...lol. And the Constitution worked just fine...as always. Despite what we would want...the Constitution is still filtered through the mores of the appointed judges that reflect the thinking of the times. And... this thinking determines how the purposely vague Constitution is interpreted. So bottom line with a few obvious exceptions the Constitution still reflects majority thinking and always will even if an atheist is in office...or a person of religion. Butch

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:42:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven We live in odd times. Obama is kind of a blend in many ways, in a country that values simplicity. His religion is technically Christian, but with rumors that he is a closet Muslim or an atheist. Nothing surprising - he also is rumored to be born outside the US, not a citizen, etc. His religion is just as whispered against as the rest of him. I suspect that him being a Christian but not a strong one sits just fine with his target constituency. While I'm not an expert on Christianity, my understanding is that many Protestants feel that Catholicism is not "real" Christianity. Odd that half the GOP field identifies as Catholic (I'm not sure WHAT Paul's religious affiliation is), and a quarter as Mormon. Santorum is trying to represent himself as a good Christian, and Obama as a closet godless Communist who portrays himself as a Christian. Santorum needs every vote he can get and is trying to pander to the Christian wing of the GOP. Note that if he does become thew GOP candidate, he's going to have to mute his stands in the general. Won't that be impossible DS, the muting I mean ? How does he do that with all the sound bites out there. While I say I am scared,the truth is nominating Santurom could be,for the Republican Party,a form of institutional suicide. But in part,that is the fear,I actually believe a two party system needs....two parties .

SoftBonds -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:47:37 AM)
Don't worry too much about the Republicans being represented in our two party system. Right now we have a moderate Republican as President. This is the guy who proposed a health care system based on Romney's implementation of Nixon's plan... This is also the guy who has backed the banks instead of the taxpayers, who has bent over backwards "compromising," with the Republicans even when his theoretical party held both houses of congress, and who continues to Kowtow to the Republicans. We haven't had a Democrat in the Oval office since Carter...

xssve -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 8:57:02 AM)
The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all.

SoftBonds -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:11:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all. So if you can vote for whoever you want for president, however the state's representatives to the electoral college must be properly vetted by the church, the Constitution would protect us? Remind me, is it the voters or the Electoral College who select the president? In other news, Obama agrees with Bush that the president/executive branch should have the right to indefinitely detain anyone on the basis of someone calling them a terrorist. Of course using that power on Senators/Representatives who dispute the divine wisdom of the President would never happen... There is a great book out there called "It can't happen here," written in the 1930's I think, read it and worry...

TheHeretic -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:14:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Cause the way I view Santurom's candidacy I am scared ,and scared shitless And are you proud and happy to be participating in the transition from "hope and change," to "fear and loathing," as a campaign theme, Mike? Would you like a nice litmus test to be required on what a candidate's religious beliefs can, and cannot be?

xssve -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:32:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: xssve The constitution would form a very large obstacle to theocratic rule - if a duly elected political junta were to dissolve the constitution, their legal authority to rule would be dissolved along with it, as it also forms the basis of any political legitimacy at all. So if you can vote for whoever you want for president, however the state's representatives to the electoral college must be properly vetted by the church, the Constitution would protect us? Remind me, is it the voters or the Electoral College who select the president? In other news, Obama agrees with Bush that the president/executive branch should have the right to indefinitely detain anyone on the basis of someone calling them a terrorist. Of course using that power on Senators/Representatives who dispute the divine wisdom of the President would never happen... There is a great book out there called "It can't happen here," written in the 1930's I think, read it and worry... Didn't say it couldn't happen, and I think the general consensus outside the beltway on both sides is that the PATRIOT act is anything but patriotic. It's why SCOTUS appointments have been such a bone of contention, since it's SCOTUS who largely gets to define what the constitution means and what it doesn't. There is nothing in the constitution that would support a theocratic form of government - I'm interested in this electoral college vetting by the church you mention, that's another way to back door the electorate for sure.

slvemike4u -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:33:03 AM)
No Rich,no litmus test on what a candidate believes as it relates to faith....but yeah a litmus test as it relates to their willingness to impose their faith on the rest of us. Or are you suggesting you are okay with having a President's faith imposed on the nation from the Oval office. A President who sides with Catholic bishops who are paying more attention to a hub bub about contraception than they did with priests molesting little boys?

Kirata -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:33:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Would you like a nice litmus test to be required on what a candidate's religious beliefs can, and cannot be? I don't think anybody has a problem with Santorum's private religious beliefs. The problem is his political philosophy, namely, that the Bible should be the "litmus test" (to borrow your phrase) for secular law. That's a big no-thank-you. K.

SoftBonds -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:36:52 AM)
Oh, just re-read my writing and wanted to clarify that the idea of a church vetting the electoral college members was a hypothetical idea, not something currently in practice. However you can see how something like that could easily derail the constitution's intent while remaining inside it's written form.

TheHeretic -> RE: Are we a secular Nation...or not. (2/19/2012 9:38:21 AM)
I think it's pretty well covered by the First Amendment, guys.

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