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The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 4:08:08 PM   
dcnovice


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A devout Catholic friend told me she's thinking of buying Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture by Michael O'Brien. That set me to thinking. Is our culture actually becoming more "pagan" (by which I think my friend means secular-humanitst rather than religiously Pagan)? If so, what are the pluses and minuses of this shift?

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 4:21:03 PM   
DomKen


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It is in some ways and is not in many others.

If at all possible I'd try and discourage your friend from reading O'Brien. He is, to put it mildly, a complete nut. In his opinion the Pern novels by Anne McCaffrey are satanic because they do not show dragons as evil because in his opinion dragons are always symbols of Satan.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 4:33:18 PM   
SoftBonds


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Pros: Fewer people who want a nuclear war in the middle east to bring about the second coming.
Cons: I donno, more congestion at the shopping malls Sunday morning?

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 5:55:24 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Is our culture actually becoming more "pagan" (by which I think my friend means secular-humanitst rather than religiously Pagan)? If so, what are the pluses and minuses of this shift?

I think the pros are relatively easy to list: greater tolerence of diversity, avoidance of oppressive morality which can harm certain groups in a given society depending on the religious creed, the lessening of the broad influence of religious codes over morality which could result in better law making etc.

Religion had a critical function in every pre-modern society and I don't think its loss is completely understood as its still quite recent. Thus the negatives are perhaps harder to see but would likely be as profound: the loss of unity of purpose within a culture, no common ethical code that is to some extent binding due to the belief in divine punishment. More generally, the loss of faith within society can result in a destructive nihilism that has led some thinkers to believe society cannot work without some form of religion. Religion seems to fulfill an important psychological need in many people and a belief in an afterlife is an issue as well. A lot of people attest to faith bringing them through difficult times etc., and it does seem that a fair number of largely secular people often turn to religion during times of great trouble. The loss of belief in some sort of "divine guiding force" (for want of a better term), might result in more neuroses generally at an individual level, especially in times of difficulty. It seems difficult to say that a secular society is always a positive thing.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 7:14:20 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Cons: I donno, more congestion at the shopping malls Sunday morning?


Pro - Pagan women like getting naked more frequently and quicker.... and in a variety of  environmental conditions.

Cons - Too many self-important guys hanging around claiming to be named "Oak King"..


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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/21/2012 11:01:20 PM   
SilverBoat


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Paganization? ...

Not that the various pagan beliefs have much more to do with reality than other religions, eh? ... And the point Anax cited about societies having some common morals etc is often one that various dogmatic faiths argue as problems with the others.

On the plus side, the diversity of delusions in some ways impedes one overall majority delusion from seizing overall control.
On the minus side, splintering into many isolated strong delusions can allow a large but less than majority delusions to maintain significant influence.

Sort of a mixed bag, perhaps the athiests would be best off aiming to keep several large but minority factions opposing each other.




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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 3:47:59 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Is our culture actually becoming more "pagan" (by which I think my friend means secular-humanitst rather than religiously Pagan)?

No, it isn't. If anything it's heading the opposite way, as the mere existence of O'Brien's stupid book suggests.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 3:58:05 AM   
kalikshama


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The author is living in the wrong millenia:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2510525/posts

Interestingly, from the moment I began to read volume one, I too was hit by an unexpected spiritual disgust, along with the sense of an oppressive presence that I had come to recognize over the years as the proximity of adverse spirits. Oftentimes in my life, while doing research, I have read books containing clearly evil elements. In terms of contents alone, Harry Potter is rather tame in comparison. So I can say that I approached the series with no strong emotional bias, no irrational fear.

However, from the day I opened the first page and began to read, a cloud of darkness and dread descended, which was held at bay only by increased prayer.

I also experienced nightmares of a kind I had never before experienced in my life. This is totally out of character for me since I am not prone to bad dreams, and usually years go by without me having one. I have had some frightening experiences in my life (far worse than reading a few questionable books) and never suffered a bad dream from it.

But from the moment I began my little part in the resistance, I suffered from nightmares of unprecedented power.

Three stand out in memory. I will spare you much of the detail, but in one, which occurred immediately following the publication of my first critique of the Potter series in a major newspaper, I was being cursed by three witches (perhaps symbolically countering the blessings and prayers of the three holy women who had launched me on this labor). The witches’ spells against me were utterly terrifying, nearly paralyzing, and only when I cried out the name of Jesus were the spells broken and pushed back. I had to keep repeating His name to preserve the defense, and woke up in a state of terror that did not dissipate in the manner of bad dreams. My wife woke up too and prayed with me, and finally we were able to go back to sleep in peace. In a similar dream the following night, the three witches returned, now accompanied by a sorcerer, and once more they cast a hideous spell against me. Again it was repelled by the holy name of Jesus and also by the prayers of the saints, especially St. Joseph.

A third dream that occurred not long after was the most frightening of all. In it, I had been captured and taken to an isolated house deep in a forest. The building was filled with men and women involved in witchcraft and sorcery. They were waiting for a man who was their chief sorcerer to arrive, and I was to be the human sacrifice in the night’s ritual. When he entered the room I felt that all hope had been lost, a black dismay filled me, along with terror of a kind I had never before felt. Even then, I was able to whisper the name of Jesus. Instantly the walls fell backward onto the ground outside the house, the cords that had bound me fell from my wrists and ankles, and I ran for my life. Leaping out of the house, I was astonished to find the entire building surrounded by mighty angels, who by their holy authority had immobilized all of the sorcerers within. I leaped and danced with joy, and realized that I had been transformed into a child. Jesus appeared in the sky above and began to descend. I continued to dance in jubilation and relief, crying out greetings to him as he arrived. At which point I woke up, filled with utter joy. And that was the last of the bad dreams.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 4:13:02 AM   
Moonhead


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Has he never played Dungeons and Dragons? Witches don't get on with sorcerors at all well...

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 4:14:30 AM   
kalikshama


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Suggest to your friend she read this:

http://www.up.edu/portlandmag/2004_summer/potter_txt.html

Scholastic Books, the American publisher of the Harry Potter novels, changed the title of the first book from its British title, Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone – American readers apparently cannot be expected to buy a book with “philosopher” in the title. But this change misled many to think that the novels are fundamentally about sorcery, witches, and witchcraft. They’re not. They are about philosophy, literally the love of wisdom, the desire to understand better the highest causes of things, and they are about faith seeking understanding, fides quaerens intellectum in the lovely Latin phrase. These two themes are intertwined and have an ancient heritage in Western culture, from Plato and Aristotle through Augustine and Aquinas through J. K. Rowling, who gives narrative expression to them in a lively morality tale, pitting unfettered power and evil against the power of goodness and love, a culture of life versus a culture of death in search of the philosopher’s treasure: wisdom.

Consider the rich religious symbols used throughout the novels.

...

Hogwarts is not a school of sorcery and the occult mastery of nature. It is a school of virtue, a community of inquiry in pursuit of wisdom, an academy of philosophy.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 6:02:51 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It is in some ways and is not in many others.

If at all possible I'd try and discourage your friend from reading O'Brien. He is, to put it mildly, a complete nut. In his opinion the Pern novels by Anne McCaffrey are satanic because they do not show dragons as evil because in his opinion dragons are always symbols of Satan.


Thanks for the heads up. I had never heard of O'Brien but anyone who can say Ruth was a symbol of Satan is a complete wackjob or he never read the books he is trashing.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 6:25:42 AM   
tweakabelle


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Some very good reasons why the secularisation of culture cannot happen fast enough can be found in the "Georgia Law Could Give Death Penalty for Miscarriages" thread.

Society in general, and women especially need protection from the excesses of religion/ideologically driven nuts such as the proponents of the Georgia Bill. If religion is to be retained, then thorough and uncompromising enforcement of the principle of separation of religion and State must be the price religion pays for being tolerated. As long as this principle is enforced, I see no harm in allowing believers the right to practice their religion in private with other consenting adults.

Freedom of religion is fine for believers. Freedom from religion is required for non-believers.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/22/2012 6:33:46 AM >


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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 6:47:22 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

I think the pros are relatively easy to list: greater tolerence of diversity, avoidance of oppressive morality which can harm certain groups in a given society depending on the religious creed, the lessening of the broad influence of religious codes over morality which could result in better law making etc.

Is there evidence that (so-called) "pagan" cultures were more tolerant of diversity, lacked a morality that disadvantaged non-believers, or that was largely based on religious belief?

K.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 7:03:30 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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FR
Is the same guy who wrote against The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings two very beloved pieces of English literature?

It always amazes me that ideas can scare people so much. Maybe O'Brien should pause and ask himself why he feels so scared of these fantasy stories. Are they too challenging or threatening to his belief in his particular omnipotent god? Perhaps the problem is not the books. Perhaps the problem is something else.

Regardless, pagan refers typically to pre-monotheistic religions, so I would not equate paganism with secular humanism. And, of course, at least one "pagan" religion is still quite alive and well, thank you very much. It is Hinduism. So to speak of "paganism" as some quaint anachronism is simply wrong.

The Chronicles of Narnia were written by C.S. Lewis - who was actually very religious. And the book is actually about Christianity. Aslan represents Christ.

I personally would welcome it if the world became more secular-humanist. But I think O'Brien's concern is actually that the world is being taken over by wizards, sorcery, the occult, vampires and other nefarious ideas. I, for one, am looking forward to the release of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RcZw68FqLs&feature=fvwrel

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 7:39:28 AM   
xssve


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Yes, anything that competes with the Roman Zombie God is asking for trouble.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 8:14:44 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR
Is the same guy who wrote against The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings two very beloved pieces of English literature?

It always amazes me that ideas can scare people so much. Maybe O'Brien should pause and ask himself why he feels so scared of these fantasy stories. Are they too challenging or threatening to his belief in his particular omnipotent god? Perhaps the problem is not the books. Perhaps the problem is something else.

Regardless, pagan refers typically to pre-monotheistic religions, so I would not equate paganism with secular humanism. And, of course, at least one "pagan" religion is still quite alive and well, thank you very much. It is Hinduism. So to speak of "paganism" as some quaint anachronism is simply wrong.

The Chronicles of Narnia were written by C.S. Lewis - who was actually very religious. And the book is actually about Christianity. Aslan represents Christ.

I personally would welcome it if the world became more secular-humanist. But I think O'Brien's concern is actually that the world is being taken over by wizards, sorcery, the occult, vampires and other nefarious ideas. I, for one, am looking forward to the release of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RcZw68FqLs&feature=fvwrel

The Lord of the Rings is equally Christian as the Chronicles of Narnia, just less blatantly and showily so. Tolkein's main reason for writing it appears to be that he found the earlier fantasy epics (in particular Eddison's The Worm Ourobourous) lacking in moral fibre. Even the Hobbit seems to be written mainly as an illustration of three moral points: power corrupts, actions have consequences, and everything has a cost both morally and physically. I honestly can't see how anybody claiming to be a Christian would find any of those objectionable.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 8:22:47 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

power corrupts, actions have consequences, and everything has a cost both morally and physically.

I honestly can't see how anybody claiming to be a Christian would find any of those objectionable.


You can't see how Christians would object to these ideas? If power corrupts, what does that mean about the pope? Or the leaders of Mega-Churches like the Bakkers and Falwell.
If actions have consequences, then you can't pollute the air without people getting asthma.
If everything has a cost, both morally and physically, then you can't start wars and then ignore the wounded vets.
Of course the Christians have a problem with these ideas...

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 8:29:36 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Of course the Christians have a problem with these ideas...

Yeah, fuckin "Christians" ...they're all the same. Tolkien was obviously a heretic, probably one of those satanic pagans.

K.

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 8:34:14 AM   
Moonhead


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Close: he was a Catholic.
I know a lot of the baptists think that sort of idolatry's the next best thing to Satanism...



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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The "Paganization" of Culture - 2/22/2012 8:34:18 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Of course the Christians have a problem with these ideas...

Yeah, fuckin "Christians" ...they're all the same. Tolkien was obviously a heretic, probably one of those satanic pagans.

K.



You are correct sir, I have tarred all Christians with an unfair brush because of the actions of a part of the group. I apologize to you and all the other Christians who are not so... Well, anyway...
That said, you have to admit that the viewpoint expressed as "Christian," in our culture, the "moral majority," etc. is fairly well described by my post.

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