Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (Full Version)

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AttitudyJudy -> Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 9:30:40 AM)

http://www.woio.com/story/17024182/breaking-chardon

Does it never end? I've been following the story on tv all morning long, hoping there wouldn't be a fatality, but they just got word that one of the students died. Dear God.

One phrase that kept getting repeated by local residents that were interviewed was that "This just doesn't happen here." Chardon is a small, rural Cleveland suburb.




Fornica -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 9:36:26 AM)

Heartbreaking :(




kalikshama -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 10:00:19 AM)

That's horrible.




VegasBachelor -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 10:28:26 AM)

I have family that goes to chardon....im from that area....and I have a teenage son that has friends there and knows one of the survivors...ive been on the phone all morning...scary stuff...i dont know whats scarier...the shooting or the fact that school shootings have become part of us culture...




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 10:47:54 AM)

FR

This is terribly sad anytime anything like this happens, particularly at a school. But I also encourage people to think about another aspect of this story.

The reports that I've seen suggest that the perpetrator was bullied at school, and that he targeted specific people (I imagine he targeted the bullies). When kids that age are relentlessly bullied, typically one of two things happen - they either externalize their feelings or they internalize them. The ones who internalize them often suffer from eating disorders, depression, etc., and are at high risk for suicide. The ones that externalize, also end up suffering from things like depression, but start to become bullies themselves.

When are we, as a society, going to address the bullying issue that is pervasive in our middle and high schools (and actually, I've seen reports of bullying going on even in grade school)? Children need to learn to be respectful of difference and stop bullying other kids (whether it is over the way they look, their sexual orientation, their lack of athletic skills, I don't care what the issue is, but kids should not bully other kids).

I am in NO way condoning what this killer did. I am not condoning guns, and not condoning violence as a means to settle disputes. I am heartbroken for all of the families who may have lost children today. I am just pointing out that there is another aspect to this that also needs to be addressed. Why is it okay for cliques of students to constantly harass other students? Often the bullying that takes place has physical and violent aspects to it. I know of someone whose child was repeatedly bullied and eventually things got sorted out, but not without a lot of intervention from the family, and not without the removal of the ringleader of the bullies - a process that took years to accomplish, and the victim still suffers from the ill-effects of the bullying. I agree that a victim of bullying should not bring a gun into school to attack his tormentors. But at what point do we, as a society, say to the bullies, enough. People are not entitled to torment someone until the victim snaps and either kills themselves or kills others.

Also, children who have psychological issues (both bullies and the bullied), need to have professional help to deal with the issues that are either causing the bullying, or affecting the way the bully is able to cope. All children should have the right to feel safe at school.

p.s. if it turns out that the early reports are inaccurate about this having been a bullying situation, then obviously I won't comment on this specific incident any further, but I still think bullying is something that we should take more seriously. Jodi Picoult's book Nineteen Minutes is a very well written novel that deals with some of these issues, and I encourage people to read it. It is very though-provoking in how it presents multiple sides of the story.




Rule -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 11:00:21 AM)

I declare bullies to be animals.




Moonhead -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 12:01:50 PM)

In which case, this lad was quite entitled to put a few of them down. What's the problem?




Anaxagoras -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 1:45:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
In which case, this lad was quite entitled to put a few of them down. What's the problem?

So teenage kids should bring guns to school, just as Sikh children bring ceremonial daggers to school, but to keep bullies at bay? I'm fairly confident some would actually endorse that novel idea...




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 2:01:06 PM)

Fuck. Just fuck.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 2:05:01 PM)

quote:

When are we, as a society, going to address the bullying issue that is pervasive in our middle and high schools (and actually, I've seen reports of bullying going on even in grade school)?


Folks have been bullied forever, and it will continue. One persons bullying is another persons joking around.

I am not defending bullies in any way, but, I think folks who choose to shoot up a school are just fucking nuts, and would have found an excuse to nut up, one way or tuther.

I don't think that bullying can force you to kill any more than listening to Ozzie can. We need to address the mental illness and the personal accountability issue's, imho of course.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 2:06:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VegasBachelor

...i dont know whats scarier...the shooting or the fact that school shootings have become part of us culture...

I wouldn't call something that happens about 3 times/year in a country of 300 Million a part of culture.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

That doesn't help the families involved but there are a lot more dangerous places to be than school.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 2:10:15 PM)

This kinda shit always seems to happen in the cafeteria too, mumbled the school cafeteria manager. At least we have the big knives, but, in a gunfight, I might as well swing a 10 pound ham at em.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 5:58:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

When are we, as a society, going to address the bullying issue that is pervasive in our middle and high schools (and actually, I've seen reports of bullying going on even in grade school)?


Folks have been bullied forever, and it will continue. One persons bullying is another persons joking around.

I am not defending bullies in any way, but, I think folks who choose to shoot up a school are just fucking nuts, and would have found an excuse to nut up, one way or tuther.

I don't think that bullying can force you to kill any more than listening to Ozzie can. We need to address the mental illness and the personal accountability issue's, imho of course.

I understand what you are saying, but it is a fact that people who commit violent crimes were often the victims of violence/a violent upbringing/lax attitudes towards violence.

Tendencies towards bullying and/or violent behavior can be identified in children as young as 6. I really think, as a society, we ought to be having the dialogue around how bullying and violence is wrong, and trying to identify those who behave in these ways at a young age, and try to intervene in appropriate ways to curb or forestall the behavior entirely. I just feel that a society that supports bullies is sending a tacit message that it supports violence, too. Please note that much of the bullying that goes on in schools is actually violent - e.g. slamming people into lockers, pushing people down stairs, tripping them - these are all small violent acts. And ignoring them sends both bullies and victims the signal that in society, using violence to do what you want is okay and that everyone needs to just fend for themselves. Personally, I don't think that is the right approach.

All I am saying is that a culture that protects bullies will create more than it's fair share of violent activity. If this killer was bullied, the bullies shouldn't be protected by the school and by society. And I feel that the the killer, by taking a gun into his hand and shooting people has become a bully himself. But I really think to say bullying has always happened in society so it's just fine does not really help us determine what kind of society we should really be trying to build. Slavery has been around for most of human history. I don't think it makes slavery right.




kdsub -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/27/2012 6:55:08 PM)

I know it is naïve but I just wish the media would not make a national tragedy and dramatize these type of events because the attention is the seed for the next tragedy.

Butch




Moonhead -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 1:27:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
In which case, this lad was quite entitled to put a few of them down. What's the problem?

So teenage kids should bring guns to school, just as Sikh children bring ceremonial daggers to school, but to keep bullies at bay? I'm fairly confident some would actually endorse that novel idea...

Probably.
The Sikh thing is pretty facile as a comparison, though. The lads carry knives for ceremonial reasons, not to stab somebody up.




AttitudyJudy -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 5:53:44 AM)

A second student has died this morning.




Anaxagoras -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 6:06:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
In which case, this lad was quite entitled to put a few of them down. What's the problem?

So teenage kids should bring guns to school, just as Sikh children bring ceremonial daggers to school, but to keep bullies at bay? I'm fairly confident some would actually endorse that novel idea...

Probably.
The Sikh thing is pretty facile as a comparison, though. The lads carry knives for ceremonial reasons, not to stab somebody up.

Don't think its "facile" old boy because it should be noted that I used the words "ceremonial daggers", and also applied the proviso "but to keep bullies at bay" with respect to the guns. [:)]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 6:11:02 AM)

FR

Here is a report that mentions the killer's family background and school experiences (both of which likely contributed to his violent behavior).

http://gma.yahoo.com/chardon-high-school-shooting-gunman-identified-tj-lane-140607186--abc-news.html

In addition, it is interesting to read the comments below the article. A lot of people posting do feel that something needs to be done about bullying in the schools. The cycle of victimization and violence that bullying creates is one that we can choose to minimize by intervening in appropriate ways at appropriate times. But turning a blind eye to bullying in the schools sends bad signals to kids about violence and responsibility.

p.s. I was never bullied as a child, but I was witness to it countless times. And I tended to just ignore it because I was so terrified of the bullies turning on me. I am ashamed to this day that I did not help protect others who were bullied. The fear that the bullies created was palpable, and it caused many of us to behave in ways that were plain wrong. I will never forgive the bullies for the way they treated others, but I will also not forgive myself for not intervening.




Anaxagoras -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 6:34:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
A lot of people posting do feel that something needs to be done about bullying in the schools. The cycle of victimization and violence that bullying creates is one that we can choose to minimize by intervening in appropriate ways at appropriate times. But turning a blind eye to bullying in the schools sends bad signals to kids about violence and responsibility.

Extended bouts of bullying are of course highly traumatic for children including when perpetuated by children, and it seems that in every other sphere abuse of children is treated with the seriousness it deserves so the authorities, wherever they may be, need to devote a good bit of energy to this issue. Bullying has become a criminal offense in numerous countries in more recent years but it still needs to be treated as a serious criminal offense because teachers, especially in second level schools don't seem able to deal with it. Their jobs are probably hard enough already.




Rule -> RE: Student killed, 4 wounded, at Ohio high school (2/28/2012 8:09:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Here is a report that mentions the killer's family background and school experiences (both of which likely contributed to his violent behavior).

That was a bit interesting. I do am curious about his psychology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I am ashamed to this day that I did not help protect others who were bullied.

I will also not forgive myself for not intervening.

If you had intervened, you would have been a hero. As it is, you are a survivor.

How to make amends? How about this: volunteer as a guardian or overseer? Form a group of such people?




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