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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 4:25:54 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Anyway, you really think that no woman who was in the girl scouts has ever used planned parenthood for services?

I was both a Girl Scout and a user of PP contraceptive services - they have a sliding scale and I had no health insurance at the time. This was pre-widespread AIDS awareness, so I was using The Pill.

IIRC, I never heard the words "Planned Parenthood" uttered while in the GS. I hope this bogeyman comes back to bite some asses hard.

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:00:12 AM

SoftBonds

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Regarding Non-profit and political speech...
The issue is not "can a non-profit exercise free speech." The issue is "Can I get a tax deduction for donating to a political group." The answer to the latter question is, NO!
If a church wants to advocate that people should vote for a particular candidate (or an initiative on a ballot), they have both freedom of speech and freedom of religion rights to do so. However, donations to that church cease to be tax deductible. It stops being a church and becomes a PAC.
Everyone clear now?

Edit: That's the IRS' ruling...

< Message edited by SoftBonds -- 3/2/2012 5:01:42 AM >

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:03:38 AM

DaddySatyr

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Are you clear that you just wiped out most PACs? As discussed, earlier; most PACs are 527 organizations and enjoy tax-exempt status, as a result (check back two pages or so).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:08:25 AM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
The Girl Scouts of America has been promoting/supporting socio-political organizations such as Planned Parenthood and GLBT.
Time to revoke its tax-exempt status.

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:26:14 AM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Are you clear that you just wiped out most PACs? As discussed, earlier; most PACs are 527 organizations and enjoy tax-exempt status, as a result (check back two pages or so).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

OK, let me re-phrase it.
Tax-exempt means non-profit.
There are several types of non-profit, but they fall into two main types.
Political organizations (PAC's, etc.) are non-profits, but contributions are not tax deductible...
Likewise, a lot of social organizations, organizations to promote a career field (the AICPA or the AITP).

A completely different group are the folks who can get tax deductible contributions. Churches and Charities!
These groups can get contributions that are not taxed because those contributions are perceived as being donated to the public welfare. A sort of "in kind," tax payment.
Such payments are intended to support the poor, preachers (I know, but...), pay for church buildings and shelters for the poor, etc.
Not for political speech.
SO, the IRS will let you take payments to a church or charity off your taxes. But if the organization becomes a political organization, that STOPS.
Clear as mud?

< Message edited by SoftBonds -- 3/2/2012 5:27:18 AM >

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:29:49 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
I will say a church has no right to interfere in politics ... at least NOT a Christian chuch.

Who is politicizing the banning of the Girl Scouts because of the church's presumed (wrongly presumed, so no one gets their knickers in a twist) connection with PP?

quote:

And I say this from a NON Legal perspective.
These [the churches] should be focused on living life as they believe, and showing others by their example ... not telling others what THEY SHOULD DO!
The truth is, not a single church in this world can turn out the perfect human ... and the churches themselves are imperfect ...
So I will suggest ... practice what you WOULD preach ... as hard as that is!
Don't play the Middle Age Era Inquisitor .. because off this earth ... you DO NOT enjoy a right of free speech!

Where in that article (and that is all I have to go by; you could be a congregant of that church and, thus, would be more privy to what comes from its pulpit) does it show St. Timothy's to be telling people how to vote or what they should do?

Do you stand up against programs or practices you deem morally, ethically, or constitutionally wrong? It would surprise me if you didn't, and I'm not saying you should or shouldn't.

Do you think Christians should stand up against programs or practices they deem morally, ethically, or constitutionally wrong? I sure as fuck hope they do.

Isn't the St. Timothy's standing up against a policy they deem morally wrong (mandating that churches cover the expense of birth control, which is contrary to Catholic teachings) showing others by example?

This whole topic is being blown out of proportion. The church said, no to the Girl Scouts because of your affiliation with PP. They have every right to do that if they so choose. It will only be a problem if they do not apply that ruling evenly. It will also be up to the church to make the decision to continue or discontinue that ban when the true link (or lack thereof) between the GSA and PP is known. Either way, it isn't a political statement coming from the pulpit. It's a moral statement.

Having their stance against the PPACA mandate to cover birth control expense for their employees does address a political issue, but they aren't telling anyone how to vote. They are stating their support or lack of support for a particular issue, and it is based solely on the morality of the issue. It has nothing to do with the D's, the R's, the L's, the P's, the C's or the Lib's. It's about the immorality of birth control in its view.

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:44:04 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Are you clear that you just wiped out most PACs? As discussed, earlier; most PACs are 527 organizations and enjoy tax-exempt status, as a result (check back two pages or so).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

OK, let me re-phrase it.
Tax-exempt means non-profit.
There are several types of non-profit, but they fall into two main types.
Political organizations (PAC's, etc.) are non-profits, but contributions are not tax deductible...
Likewise, a lot of social organizations, organizations to promote a career field (the AICPA or the AITP).

A completely different group are the folks who can get tax deductible contributions. Churches and Charities!
These groups can get contributions that are not taxed because those contributions are perceived as being donated to the public welfare. A sort of "in kind," tax payment.
Such payments are intended to support the poor, preachers (I know, but...), pay for church buildings and shelters for the poor, etc.
Not for political speech.
SO, the IRS will let you take payments to a church or charity off your taxes. But if the organization becomes a political organization, that STOPS.
Clear as mud?

Almost but, you didn't read the points I've already made. To answer yours, specifically: you don't think a church contributes money to a political campaign? They have their own PACs to do that. Otherwise, they'd be in violation of the law.

Now, if you were to propose a law that any church that stated anything that was opposed to what the law is (or wants to move to be) ceases to be a church, you are well into violation of the first amendment. By "de"-establishing a church, you're "establishing" all the others (until you get around to going after them, too). Eventually, you're left with whatever the government will allow you to believe, a de facto "religion" whether it has an organization or not;absolutely a violation of the first amendment.

Capice?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Anyone looking for a church to boycott? - 3/2/2012 5:50:39 AM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Are you clear that you just wiped out most PACs? As discussed, earlier; most PACs are 527 organizations and enjoy tax-exempt status, as a result (check back two pages or so).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

OK, let me re-phrase it.
Tax-exempt means non-profit.
There are several types of non-profit, but they fall into two main types.
Political organizations (PAC's, etc.) are non-profits, but contributions are not tax deductible...
Likewise, a lot of social organizations, organizations to promote a career field (the AICPA or the AITP).

A completely different group are the folks who can get tax deductible contributions. Churches and Charities!
These groups can get contributions that are not taxed because those contributions are perceived as being donated to the public welfare. A sort of "in kind," tax payment.
Such payments are intended to support the poor, preachers (I know, but...), pay for church buildings and shelters for the poor, etc.
Not for political speech.
SO, the IRS will let you take payments to a church or charity off your taxes. But if the organization becomes a political organization, that STOPS.
Clear as mud?

Almost but, you didn't read the points I've already made. To answer yours, specifically: you don't think a church contributes money to a political campaign? They have their own PACs to do that. Otherwise, they'd be in violation of the law.

Now, if you were to propose a law that any church that stated anything that was opposed to what the law is (or wants to move to be) ceases to be a church, you are well into violation of the first amendment. By "de"-establishing a church, you're "establishing" all the others (until you get around to going after them, too). Eventually, you're left with whatever the government will allow you to believe, a de facto "religion" whether it has an organization or not;absolutely a violation of the first amendment.

Capice?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I think we are in agreement then.
I was just pointing out the law of the land. I used to work at a CPA firm, and had to deal with the relevant code sections (we'd do pro-Bono tax documents for the non-profits, yes, they have to file tax forms to not pay taxes if they collect a certain amount of money).
That and...I don't know if that is the case here, but I don't want people to think churches are completely free to do whatever. I can't just call my business a church to get out of paying taxes... So I am pointing out that the argument that churches cannot use church funds to pay for political advertising without losing their tax-deductible status is correct, whether it applies in this case or not.

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