RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 1:02:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
example, a slave shouldnt be saying what she wants and doesnt want, what she approves of or what she doesnt. either a slave will trust and follow direction or she will not.

I'm assuming you mean that in the short-term fantasy sense rather than in the sense of actually taking ownership of a human being permanently.

I often think that threads here on CM get confused because the rules for long-term relationships are very different than the rules for short-term hot fantasy. And, the rules of reality are very different than the rules of fantasy now that I think on it.



BitaTruble -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 1:51:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

example, a slave shouldnt be saying what she wants and doesnt want, what she approves of or what she doesnt. either a slave will trust and follow direction or she will not. what happens after is in the hands of the Dominant, but to Me that would be one example.


Works great if you're a fleshy flogger.. not so much if you are actually a dominant wanting to establish a long term relationship. If they don't tell you what's on their mind how do you determine if you're even compatible?



kitkat105 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 2:45:01 AM)

Does topping from the bottom exist? Yes, I imagine so! I consider myself pretty submissive, but even I like to try to push the boundaries.

I don't usually get very far. [;)]



jennileigh8182 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 5:05:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

in response to Chatte,

example that I have seen: when one calls themselves submitting to someone, but gives them instructions on what they need to do. example, a slave shouldnt be saying what she wants and doesnt want, what she approves of or what she doesnt. either a slave will trust and follow direction or she will not. what happens after is in the hands of the Dominant, but to Me that would be one example.

what are some examples you have seen?



Erm....if my dominant wants to have an intelligent woman submit to him (and he does, so he LIKES those that speak up and may even skirt the edges at times), he certainly wouldn't go for this idea. You really want a sub that never voices a desire? That never tells you what they like or don't? Really? What if you ended up with a sub that had some fetish for cleaning toilets, but you never listened to that....and when you wanted to punish them, you made them clean your bathrooms? *gasps* You'd be rewarding them! I think THAT would be "Bottoming from the Top" because you didn't bother to learn your submissive and simply made an assumption about their character.



MrsT301 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 5:09:57 AM)

I don't know what topping from the bottom is; does anyone have an example?

Like if the sub wants to play/have sex, and the Dominant doesn't, but ends up doing that anyway to make the sub happy is that topping from the bottom?

Or if the sub is getting a spanking and says "lets take a break for ten seconds, then you can go back to spanking me?"

Or if the sub says, "Can you tie me up tonight, I'm in the mood to get tied up" is that topping from the bottom? I have no idea.



jennileigh8182 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 5:24:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsT301

I don't know what topping from the bottom is; does anyone have an example?

Like if the sub wants to play/have sex, and the Dominant doesn't, but ends up doing that anyway to make the sub happy is that topping from the bottom? If the sub can rouse his interest, I see nothing wrong with this. If he really doesn't want to, there are a million ways to brush off/disarm an attempted seduction. Hell, I'd be happy with being grabbed against his side and allowed to just cuddle in and be close instead.

Or if the sub is getting a spanking and says "lets take a break for ten seconds, then you can go back to spanking me?" If it's for a valid reason, again, nothing wrong with this. I guess maybe I would say it differently, but if I -needed- that break, I wouldn't want to be with a dom that wouldn't give it to me. How would I feel safe and trust him?

Or if the sub says, "Can you tie me up tonight, I'm in the mood to get tied up" is that topping from the bottom? This sounds like just plain ole clear communication and openness, being comfortable in a relationship. He may say, 'no,' but can it really be wrong to ask?

I have no idea.




kalikshama -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 5:45:58 AM)

quote:

I often think that threads here on CM get confused because the rules for long-term relationships are very different than the rules for short-term hot fantasy. And, the rules of reality are very different than the rules of fantasy now that I think on it.

[sm=goodpost.gif][sm=agree.gif]



lizi -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 5:48:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I think that manipulative behavior exists. I personally don't feel the need to label it with a special label just because it's a sub doing it to a dom but if you do that's fine. In that vein topping from the bottom exists.


This is what tftb means to me. It's manipulation, period, why give it some different name and category like it's special? Yes, people manipulate each other...so what? It can be small things or big, whatever it is it happens. To me it's just a facet of human relationships and the degree to which it happens depends on what the people involved are like, and what they allow to happen from others.

quote:


I think importantly to me though, since this behavior is always ascribed to the sub, is the fact that in order for this manipulation to actually go anywhere the dom has to allow himself to be manipulated. It takes two to tango so in order for "topping from the bottom" to happen then "bottoming from the top" must also. I think I reflexively argue against it because the presentation is always so lopsided... it's the sub's fault. So I tend to point out that the dom also has some sort of responsibility not to abdicate his or her authority and deciding to be manipulated is absolutely abdication.


This is very true. It always seems like some dastardly plot that the submissive it up to, I don't know, some manipulation is small potatoes and a result of knowing someone very well. If I know my Dominant and I are supposed to get up and go do some activity at the crack of dawn and the bed is warm and I don't really feel like leaving it, is it tftb to rub his back a little when he stirs because I know he's a sucker for that and will get sleepy again?

Plus there's the stigma of a Dominant who 'allows' tftb as though he or she is weak and being controlled by their partner. Are they? And so what if they are? Maybe it works for them, who knows. Maybe he knows exactly what i'm doing and why when I rub his back in the morning to avoid kayaking in the cold, and figures why not- then it's his wish isn't it? Who the heck knows if there isn't any communication and most importantly....who cares?

quote:


Also, and on an entirely personal note, this is another of those phrases that just wouldn't fit Carol and I. It implies an underlying viewpoint that neither of us share. It implies a failure of team work on both sides which would be greatly disturbing to both Carol and I were it true. The question of "How did we get so far apart?" would be more pressing to me than "Why is that damned bitch trying to manipulate me?" Topping from the bottom is another of those phrases that implies a two party system and we just have one team.

CrazyML said: "but sure - sometimes I do wonder "who is the Dominant in that relationship...?"
And that's exactly why it doesn't fit. I don't think either Carol or I is "dominant" in that sense. I frequently see us as a school of fish and the question I'd be having here is "What went wrong with the school such that she zigged and I zagged?" I don't think either of us actually cares who is "dominant" I think we both care a great deal that the school of fish stays together in a proper school.


I guess I understand this portion because it fits more of what we do in my relationship. I pull back on my needs if I think we need to concentrate more on the couple dynamic and I know he does too...we take hits for the greater good. I think most people do.

The way I see tftb is that it's a mystery to me what people are talking about. Yes, manipulation exists and it will come about as a kind of natural part of any relationship, it doesn't have to be bad....I'm never sure why tftb seems to be so demonized. I'm also not sure why it has like a cute little category in the D/s lifestyle all by itself outside of the more general term of manipulation.

It seems to me that every couple kind of has a base that they draw from and then the details ebb and flow with the tide depending on day to day life and who needs what. How each person reacts to the other at any given time is part of what they do, this is just one of those things that to me, seems like a given in any relationship and a normal part of it.



littlewonder -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 7:45:16 AM)

quote:

Like if the sub wants to play/have sex, and the Dominant doesn't, but ends up doing that anyway to make the sub happy is that topping from the bottom?


If he wants to have sex, we have sex. I can request it but doesn't mean I'll get it. He fucks me because he wants to, not to indulge me.

quote:

Or if the sub is getting a spanking and says "lets take a break for ten seconds, then you can go back to spanking me?"


This for me would be topping from the bottom because you're telling him what to do, not requesting. You're making the decision, not him. If I did that I think Master would look at me and laugh and then hit me twice as hard. lol

quote:

Or if the sub says, "Can you tie me up tonight, I'm in the mood to get tied up" is that topping from the bottom?


This would not be topping from the bottom because you are requesting, not telling him. You're still allowing him to make the decision. All you are doing is asking. If you TOLD him you wanted tied up and then proceeded to tell him HOW to tie you up then you'd be topping from the bottom.

Remember people...my opinion, nothing more. Take it how you want.




Kana -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 8:02:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
I just got done reading another thread in which it was stated that topping from the bottom does not exist.

The premise is that a "real" dominant can't be topped from the bottom, that it was a term used to stifle and control the s-type.

I very much disagree with this statement. As a switch, I know both sides well. I am *very* aware that subs can and do manipulate dominants to get what they want/need. In fact, I would say most subs do this.

Of course, they are either smacked down (metaphorically speaking, or not) for this behavior, or it goes by unnoticed, or *and herein lies the issue to me* the dom notices it but does NOTHING.

Even my uber laid back dominant will say on occasion, "you know, you are getting a bit uppity there, girly," with that *ahem cough* stern voice.

In other words, he knows I am attempting to manipulate him, it's no big deal he's rather an immovable force, but he does let me know I've put a tippytoe across one of his lines in the sand.

So, what is your opinion on this issue?

Does topping from the bottom exist?

Why or why not?

And please, can we keep the discussion civil, tyvm.


Grins
Why's it gotta be all one way or another?
Why can't it be like, you know, everything else in the world and be much more complicated than simply cut n dried?
One of life's great altruism's is the notion that you can't play tennis alone.
Topping from the bottom involves:
1-A Dom who can't/won't take charge.
2-A slave/sub who, for whatever reason, won't/can't let go.
3-A combination therein

Sure, he may have an inability to lead/inspire...but I gotta tell ya, from lots and lots of life experience, that you can't teach someone who don't wanna learn and you often can't inspire folks who aren't willing to let go.
So maybe it's on the top. Maybe it's on the bottom. But one thing for sure, we damn well know it's on the both of them.

Now, and here is the disclaimer, we are moving into the opinion zone.

Frankly, I think the main reason this stuff happens is simply because the "Dom" ain't willing to say that "We do things my way or we don't do em." and then actualize.
Lotsa folks make that threat-very few follow through...and in failing to do so, destroy all the credibility they have with the bottom.
But on the flip side, there are folks who just won't let go. They may talk the game, they may even really really want to let go and trust, obey, follow direction...but for whatever reason (Trust issues, prior experiences, childhood issues, whatever) they are unable to surmount that obstacle when push comes to shove.

Just like there are some folks who can't orgasm.
It ain't that lots of em wouldn't love to be able to, but something inside em is wired otherwise.

And I say this because I've dealt with both.
When I was younger, more tentative, less assured in who and what I was/am as a person, as a man, as a dominant, I let things slide way more than I do now. And ended up in situations that weren't all the way topping from the bottom, but had become power struggles, power struggles rooted in my refusal to seize control and assert absolute dominion.

Now, as I've gotten older, more settled, I make things clear from the outset that we either do things my way or there's the door.
I'm not an asshole about it. I don't get upset or angry.
Matter of fact, my feelings aren't even gonna be hurt.
Why would they?
It's nothing personal. It's just that the two of us are looking for vastly different things in a relationship and I know myself well enough to know what does and does not work for me.
And if she don't like that, oh well. She shoulda fucking obeyed.

Now, I know lotsa folks here think I'm way out there, that I'm this uber-strict dude.
But the reality of the situation is that, yes, I am pretty straightforward bout stuff and don't take no gumption re these things, but in general everything I do is designed to make life easier, for me and for her.
I play with people who want to be with me.
Don't wanna be-then cool-don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
No biggee to me.

But if you are here and staying, then there's only one way we are gonna do things. I don't do power struggles. I don't do back and forths. I don't get into debates.
And I do this because it's easier for both of us.
Cuz all that other stuff is emotionally exhausting and I'm way past all the games.
I like calm. I like structure. I like peace n quiet.
I suffer from irrational ideas like "Happy slaves make for happy Masters...and vice versa."

And there's nothing wrong about this...just as there's nothing wrong with anyone who vehemently disagrees.
It don't mean I'm right and/or they are wrong-just means we wouldn't work well together. That's all...just like any other relationship where the parties have differing ideals/goals/values and expectations is doomed to fail also.

So I think that it's a combination of factors. Yes, it can't happen w/o him allowing it...but by the same token, he can't force a surrender that doesn't exist and never will-if he does, the lawyers have a technical term for that sorta behavior-it's called Class A Rape and is a heavy duty felony.



peppermint -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 8:16:09 AM)

Of course topping from the bottom exists.  Gary does it every time he tells me to use one of his new floggers on him.  He always wants to know what the new one feels like so I have to flog him with it. 

I really dislike it when people imply that topping from the bottom is ALWAYS bad.  As with most things related to life, it depends on the cicurmstances. 

I just read the post above this one.  Gary is NOT refusing to take charge.  I am NOT refusing to let go.  Nor is it a combination of the two.  If MY top wants me to do something to him then I will not refuse.  Yes, he allows it, in fact he demands that it happen.  Who am I to say no to him just because some stranger on an online forum has really strange ideas as to what all topping from the bottom is? 



sirsholly -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 8:25:17 AM)

quote:

I really dislike it when people imply that topping from the bottom is ALWAYS bad. As with most things related to life, it depends on the cicurmstances.
why is it that good old communication between partners can be twisted into topping from the bottom?



IrishMist -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 8:28:34 AM)

quote:

These Masters are rare, it takes intelligence, dilligence and self-discipline.

I disagree.
It takes being a human being WITH failings; and it takes acceptance of the fact that you are human with failings.

IMO, being a 'Master" is not about control; it's about responsibility.

quote:

and my personal tendency would be to allow (occasionally) my sub to influence me - but to draw the line very clearly at "control".

You know, this is actually pretty huge right here. The concept of influence and control. Not many would have the confidence in themselves to admit that allowing a submissive/slave to influence them is not a bad thing.
quote:

when does topping from the bottom come into question? I usually see it with newer submissives, who doesnt know the ropes, and doesnt know how to communicate their wants and needs in an effective manner. And i see mostly weak dominants, who live in the worlds its my way or no way adapt, use these phrases.

SpiritedRadiance, your whole post was amazing, but this jumped out the most. It's sad to say that I agree with what you said here. Too many new people fall into the hole of 'I am the dominant, the one in control; it's my way, and if you disagree, then you are not a TRUE submissive"
If there are any new people out there reading this thread, let me just say that it's a load of crock. I don't care how many years someone has in the so-called lifestyle, or how much they quote themselves as being 'experts'...anyone who manipulates another in this way is an idiot and should be treated like an idiot.
quote:

example that I have seen: when one calls themselves submitting to someone, but gives them instructions on what they need to do. example, a slave shouldnt be saying what she wants and doesnt want, what she approves of or what she doesnt. either a slave will trust and follow direction or she will not. what happens after is in the hands of the Dominant, but to Me that would be one example.

Interesting. Can I ask how this strategy works for you?
quote:

Its more of a failing on the side of the Dominant than the submissive. It can't really happen unless the Dominant allows it to happen, so if it does; it is the Dominant's fault (or at least His/Her choice to allow it).

If they allow it though, it can not be classified as TFTB. If they allow it, it's happening because they want it to, not because the submissive is forcing it.

All that aside, I can honestly say that if any of you had known me 20 years ago, and seen me with my late husband, you probably would have rolled your eyes and wondered who was in charge. I manipulated him every chance I got. Sometimes he humored me, sometimes he ignored me, sometimes he slapped me down; it all depended on his mood on any given day, and on the reasons for my pushing him.
Luckily, he knew me pretty good, and almost always knew what was behind the pushing.

His handling of it though, had nothing to do with how strong, confident, or in control he was and everything to do with how well he knew me and my motivations behind my behavior. Just as I knew which buttons to push or not push on him; he knew which to push on me.

If the dominants really wanted to stop a submissive/slave from attempting to control the scene/relationship; all they need to do is take the time to get to know the person they are playing with. And by getting to know, I mean GETTING TO KNOW the person. Their likes, their dislikes, their dreams, their goals, their fantasies, their past, their present....every little nuance of what makes them that person today. That kind of information can tell you HOW to handle them when they start to push for control.



DesFIP -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 10:35:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

If I have to consistently force you to obey, then you're not very obedient, are you? And to me that is not submissive.



What I think you missed is that force play, and funishment is a real kink for many people.

It wasn't that he isn't submissive and you aren't dominant, but that you didn't bother to discuss the details sufficiently upfront to discover that you weren't compatible.

I like some force play, and he enjoys forcing me on occasion. He's still dominant and I'm still submissive. But it works because we both enjoy this.



Alecta -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 12:35:10 PM)

It seems to me the major difference between those who think Topping from the Bottom exist and those who don't is what they consider to be Topping from the Bottom.

If I were asked to explain Topping from the Bottom, I would call it the situation where the submissive thinks and acts like they are in charge and the Dom/me should listen to them or let them do whatever they want, in contrary to the "contract" between him/her and his/her Dom/me. By contract I mean the agreement of how the relationship is run, not necessarily a physical written contract.

It is not topping form the bottom for a sub to communicate fantasies, needs, wants, or instructions on a matter that it is agreed that the submissive is the better authority on. If that were the case, then any submissive who is not a mute robot is a bottom topper. If that were the case than safewords have no place in a "proper D/s relationship".

If it is agreed and decided that only the Dom/me's word goes between 4pm to 9pm, then attempting to get the Dom/me to do what you want between those times is topping from the bottom. Negotiating a time change (outside of that time) is not. Negotiating, fighting, manipulating the Dom/me outside that time frame is not. The latter is pretty much your typical human relationship ;) It isn't topping from the bottom to test your Dom/me or be a brat, because at the end of the day, both these dynamics expect the Dom/me to put their foot down and punish the sub for it.

To me, it is the situation where the sub is breaking the rules of the relationship, including the one where the Dom/me is in charge, but expecting the Dom/me to be ok with it. There is a fine line, for sure, and it is drawn, I feel, in the sub's intentions. As I'd mentioned in the other thread, Topping from the Bottom is the domain of those who intend for their Dom/mes to be nothing more than their kink delivery systems, altough in itself, it is just another thing that happens and we each choose to like it, put up with it, or not.



peppermint -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 1:32:00 PM)

quote:

If I were asked to explain Topping from the Bottom, I would call it the situation where the submissive thinks and acts like they are in charge and the Dom/me should listen to them or let them do whatever they want, in contrary to the "contract" between him/her and his/her Dom/me.


Didn't you ever think that maybe the dominant could be the one topping from the bottom? If a dominant tops from the bottom, what is so bad about that?



Alecta -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 1:39:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

quote:

If I were asked to explain Topping from the Bottom, I would call it the situation where the submissive thinks and acts like they are in charge and the Dom/me should listen to them or let them do whatever they want, in contrary to the "contract" between him/her and his/her Dom/me.


Didn't you ever think that maybe the dominant could be the one topping from the bottom? If a dominant tops from the bottom, what is so bad about that?


Absolutely nothing except they'd be the Dom/me, not the sub. Also, you're neglecting the part where it is in contrary to what was agreed between them.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 2:31:49 PM)

I was not at all speaking of force play, or funishment, or anything like that. (How was that not clear?) I am talking about someone who consistently disobeys (within the context of a BDSM lifestyle relationship) b/c at heart they are not that obedient.

Which TO ME, is at the very heart of submission. If you can't be obedient when I want you to be, you are useless to me.

And yes, AGAIN I talking of an actual lifestyle relationship, not a particular session.

So, to coalesce all these thoughts after having read other's input (and ty BTW).

For me, topping from the bottom is consistently pushing that obedience boundary far past where the dominant wants it to go. With the understanding that boundary will vary drastically couple to couple.

Great discussion, will post more later, I have many I want to respond to, but I have to go deal with dinner.

Best, CP




peppermint -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 2:33:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta


quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

quote:

If I were asked to explain Topping from the Bottom, I would call it the situation where the submissive thinks and acts like they are in charge and the Dom/me should listen to them or let them do whatever they want, in contrary to the "contract" between him/her and his/her Dom/me.


Didn't you ever think that maybe the dominant could be the one topping from the bottom? If a dominant tops from the bottom, what is so bad about that?


Absolutely nothing except they'd be the Dom/me, not the sub. Also, you're neglecting the part where it is in contrary to what was agreed between them.


Excuse me if i disagree. When we started our D/s relationship it was agreed that he would be the dominant and I would be the submissive.

I hope we can agree that the bottom is the person having something done to them, and the top is the person who is doing the action. If my dom wants a massage then he is the person who is having something done to him (the bottom) and I am the the person who is doing (the top). He tells me exactly where I am to massage and how hard he wants it. He is topping from the bottom. That is NOT contrary to what we agreed upon with our D/s relationship. It is exactly part of what a D/s relationship is about. He gets to decide and make the decisions whether he is topping at the moment or bottoming.




TNDommeK -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/10/2012 3:54:51 PM)

thus the reason I said SLAVE not submissive. there is a difference. and I was not speaking about not knowing the person serving. that is important, Im speaking of the example I gave. again, lets say, a slave disobeys and the Master punishes her. If the slave says something along the lines of "I dont want to be punished that way" or "thats not what I want done" she is attempting to top from the bottom. there is no intelligent conversation needed for that. the slave is simply punished, end of story. that would be the Master controlling the slave. I have conversations about submissives, when I start dealing with them. I deal with slaves. and that is simply MY point of view. but just so everyone understands how I do things, I do take the time to get to know the slave and see if we are a match before hand. I think everyone is different in how they run their household. this is just how I run Mine, and so far is working pretty good. there are a lot of examples of topping, not all are bad, there are different degrees of it, as stated in some examples in previous posts.

also I do enjoy reading the differences in each post. individualism is what makes things interesting



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