RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (Full Version)

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CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 10:27:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


That's your assumption. I would think that in a committed relationship the dominant is very well aware of what is going on and wants the sub to feel stronger, more secure and thus chooses to agree to do what the sub is requesting in order to get them to feel happier and more assured.

I do find it interesting that the predominant majority of those who think this is always horrible are female dominants who have male submissives. Whereas the dominants who choose to indulge the sub in this manner, for whatever reason, are male dominants of female submissives who have a long term monogamous relationship. And I chose the term "choosing to indulge" deliberately, because I think they are well aware of what is going on.

Again, when a dominant rewards this behavior, there's a reason. It could be that the dominant thinks anything that makes him laugh is good and deserves approval. Or it could be that he wants her to feel safer in asking for what she needs and knows she isn't yet able to ask outright but only indirectly and feels that rewarding the indirect request will lead her to be able to make direct requests. But these sorts of reasons don't take place between play partners but between life partners.



...and just like anything else between life partners this can backfire as well. Attempts to make another feel safer can be taken as weakness and the crux is because there was not honesty in the initial relationship building or at the very least, a communication issue, which just has gotten worse. That being said, showing a glimpse of hindsight and a touch of bitterness, I would state that like any other dynamic, it is only possible to make proper decisions when the information is correctly possessed or processed...and that errors in judgement can be made.

I also think that if there is truly "topping from the bottom", there is an agreement to do so, implicit or not. Any relationship dynamic can become more convoluted than warranted... I also agree with the difference between play and life partners, different dynamics and investments, at least in my opinion.

I personally believe that the most obviously necessary aspect is open honesty. Imagine that, just like "real" relationships...



CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 10:33:52 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana



Sure, he may have an inability to lead/inspire...but I gotta tell ya, from lots and lots of life experience, that you can't teach someone who don't wanna learn and you often can't inspire folks who aren't willing to let go.
So maybe it's on the top. Maybe it's on the bottom. But one thing for sure, we damn well know it's on the both of them.

Now, and here is the disclaimer, we are moving into the opinion zone.

Frankly, I think the main reason this stuff happens is simply because the "Dom" ain't willing to say that "We do things my way or we don't do em." and then actualize.
Lotsa folks make that threat-very few follow through...and in failing to do so, destroy all the credibility they have with the bottom.
But on the flip side, there are folks who just won't let go. They may talk the game, they may even really really want to let go and trust, obey, follow direction...but for whatever reason (Trust issues, prior experiences, childhood issues, whatever) they are unable to surmount that obstacle when push comes to shove.




This is well thought out. Besides the combination aspect but I have found that everything can unravel from the failure to let go part and have made the mistake of believing that I could make her do so...if they won't let go, they won't let go. Not my fault and if you take every step to make certain that they can feel 'safe' and yet they continue to make up excuses as to how you are falling short...you have to stop and ask, have I or is it just a brick wall and be intelligent enough to walk away.





chatterbox24 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 10:40:18 AM)

I think in the mental aspect of topping from the bottom. If the slave or sub is trying to top all the time they are either not a slave/sub or they are unhappy with the way things are going and need a new Master. Compatiblity is everything. You can pretend for awhile but then BANG...............slave shows their dominance and strength then leaves.



CRYPTICLXVI -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 10:45:23 AM)

Agreed, compatibility is everything... and it does come down to this. Period.



MarchHare0289 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 3:31:37 PM)

I personally think it can work both ways. Subs can top from the bottom, and sometimes "doms" can bottom from the top. It can be good or bad depending on the personal opinions of those involved, but without a doubt I believe that subs can work over their doms to get what they want. It's not always as blatant as "Hey do this." or "Do you want me to do that?" It can just as easily be something subtle as moving your body or dropping a quick little hint at something. Whats worse is people can do it without even realizing they are doing it.

For instance, something as simple as moving your arm in a defensive position, because you want your other half to move it away and assert control over you would be a method of body language used to get something a sub wants. Just like while sitting around, reading, or watching tv, somebody might drop a line like "That's weird... do you smell apples? I must just be getting hungry, oh well." - While a bit more obvious, it can spur the other into thinking or agreeing with you, and wanting food themselves. A few minutes later, both are sitting down for dinner. :P That's an example of the yawning theory, you see or hear one person do it, you do it yourself. More on that here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yawn

Honestly, if you get deep enough into the subject, it becomes more of a psychology issue, to which I'm certainly no expert. My day job doesnt exactly rely on my shining intellect lol. This is just what I think on the matter.



malemaid4BBW -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/13/2012 5:21:15 PM)

Topping from the bottom surely exists in the form of limits and safe words. No Dominant has supreme power over their sub, and every sub has the right to say no, and that's topping from the bottom. A lot of subs say Master this or Mistress that, but it's all agreed previously. So in reality a sub holds exactly the same amount of power as a Dom'me.



IrishMist -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/14/2012 6:18:54 AM)

quote:

Topping from the bottom surely exists in the form of limits and safe words. No Dominant has supreme power over their sub, and every sub has the right to say no, and that's topping from the bottom

And that's a crock of shit.



Greta75 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/14/2012 9:06:53 AM)

Lol, it seems like, this is bdsm, everybody has a different interpretation.
That's probably what makes it so hard.




chatterbox24 -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/14/2012 9:53:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lol, it seems like, this is bdsm, everybody has a different interpretation.
That's probably what makes it so hard.




Call it hard .............or challenging, unqiue, different, exhiliarating, mind blowing, and definitely interesting. Its cool to see everyones interpretations I think. Even if people dont agree.

Nothing like topping from the bottom and being sly and getting by with it. Evil laugh with head thrown back.........lol



Kana -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/14/2012 9:07:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Lol, it seems like, this is bdsm, everybody has a different interpretation.
That's probably what makes it so hard.

I'd argue that's what makes it so awesome.
There are no rules-it's an anarchists wet dream!



nashsub4fun -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 8:29:14 AM)

Absolutely, topping from the bottom exists. my Master has called me out on this more than once. He does not get angry with me because He recognizes i have needs to be met and being bratty is one of the ways i get those needs met.



MrBukani -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 9:13:23 AM)

I care less these days if you dont know the meaning between class and style.
BDSM has made up lots of terms to define if its a fit.
Its all good to me as long as you fit.
Just dont forget the regular meanings of words when you discuss important issues.
And if you have different opinions on what words really mean, Explain it to the one you are talkin to.



JeffBC -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 9:59:51 AM)

Its all good to me as long as you fit.
This has generally become my rule for BDSM. I saw this in operation, first, at our local MAsT meetings. Nobody ever did a test to figure out if person was a true master or slave. As it turned out, such things aren't necessary. People self-select. If you didn't belong there, you stopped coming sooner or later -- as I did.

Just dont forget the regular meanings of words when you discuss important issues.
Wow.... seriously? There are "regular meanings" for BDSM words? Where did you find the dictionary because honestly I can't find it. Or, put more accurately, I can find about 2 gajillion dictionaries that don't even remotely agree with each other.

And if you have different opinions on what words really mean, Explain it to the one you are talkin to.
Given what I just said previously, I find that explaining your context first is absolutely necessary... as is getting the other person's. My favorite example of this is, "I'm a 24/7, TPE slave collared to her master". Do you think you know what that means -- even loosely? I don't. Not only don't I know what the overall sentence means but I don't know what any of the individual words mean. I don't know what "24/7" means. I don't know what "TPE" means. I don't know what "slave" or "master" means. I don't know what "collared" means. Do you think you do?

So when someone says something like that to me I ignore it and wait patiently for the follow-up which will tell me something much more descriptive than a bunch of undefined jargon. Apropos to this thread, if someone were to say to me something about TFTB in the real world I'd try hard not to laugh at them and, as I said, wait patiently to find out what they mean by that. After that point I could sort out if we're talking...


  • A deeply loving couple with a hot sex life which includes some elements of control and brattiness.
  • A dysfunctional and embittered dominant who can't really dominate his own shoelaces much less another person.
  • A sub who isn't
  • Any one of about 4 trillion other possible things


About the only thing I'd really know from the TFTB allusion is that the person in question is deep into BDSM memes, viewpoints and mindsets. Accordingly, from my perspective, they are probably also lost in fantasy and not a possible partner



MrBukani -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 10:05:22 AM)

Regular as in normal discussions.
Nothing to do with bdsm in general is what I mean.
But that gets lost in chat discussions.
Yes we have to remember being very specific in what we are really saying Jeff
Thanks.



MrBukani -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 10:07:08 AM)

Thats why I said class vs style.
Nothing to do with bdsm.



MrBukani -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/18/2012 10:08:16 AM)

And dont get back to me I am implying bdsm is abnormal.[:D]



slaverachel2Him -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/19/2012 12:07:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I just got done reading another thread in which it was stated that topping from the bottom does not exist.

The premise is that a "real" dominant can't be topped from the bottom, that it was a term used to stifle and control the s-type.

I very much disagree with this statement. As a switch, I know both sides well. I am *very* aware that subs can and do manipulate dominants to get what they want/need. In fact, I would say most subs do this.

Of course, they are either smacked down (metaphorically speaking, or not) for this behavior, or it goes by unnoticed, or *and herein lies the issue to me* the dom notices it but does NOTHING.

Even my uber laid back dominant will say on occasion, "you know, you are getting a bit uppity there, girly," with that *ahem cough* stern voice.

In other words, he knows I am attempting to manipulate him, it's no big deal he's rather an immovable force, but he does let me know I've put a tippytoe across one of his lines in the sand.

So, what is your opinion on this issue?

Does topping from the bottom exist?

Why or why not?

And please, can we keep the discussion civil, tyvm.













Can't say i blame a sub/slave for wanting what they want, or expressing what they need. No one wants to go through a life of denial however- part of the "deal" is the smart Dominant does satisfy those needs, but in their own time. Trying to manipulate to get it at the sub/slaves time to me is "topping from the bottom" and kind takes some of the surprise and fun and Domination out of it Most would not stay forever if the Dominant refused to ever say- whip them or whatever their kink is (of course that is a part of the process of initially getting together- getting one who WANTS to whip) but it has to be up to the Dominant when/where/how etc otherwise there is no Domination. i would not like that myself. i prefer it when he ties me, sensory deprives me and i have no clue what is coming, if anything, when, how long etc.



IrishMist -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/19/2012 5:14:02 AM)

quote:

Just dont forget the regular meanings of words when you discuss important issues.
Wow.... seriously? There are "regular meanings" for BDSM words? Where did you find the dictionary because honestly I can't find it. Or, put more accurately, I can find about 2 gajillion dictionaries that don't even remotely agree with each other.

I have agree here. There is no 'general, universal definition' for any of the terms that we use. Each and every one is subjective.

MadRabbit once started a post on here about the difference in opinion over definitions. I always found it fascinating...that so many people could have so many different ways of defining the same words.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2246849/mpage_1/tm.htm
You should check it out; it's quite an eye opener.



JeffBC -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/19/2012 8:40:21 AM)

Yeah... it's always nice to go back to an old thread and, for once, see that what I wrote back then still seems reasonably smart. Usually I look at stuff I wrote a few years back and think, "Dear God, why did I think that?" LOL

And, I miss both Rabbit and Rover.

edited to add
Man, but as I read the thread more carefully it is astonishing how some people could read that thread and still think there really are common definitions. Somehow, people seem to really, really, want to believe that. It must be comforting somehow. Like... if there's no way to keep score then how can I know if I'm the best? I personally like picking the really innocuous words. Sure, sure, we all know that sub/slave is a tough one. I like to ask people what, exactly, they mean by "total" LOL.



MrBukani -> RE: Topping from the Bottom - Does it exist? (3/19/2012 8:44:05 AM)

Again I said regular meaning not bdsm meaning.
I can read inbetween any post I like and turn it around.
By your definition a master can be a slave, thats how I can read it, but I choose not to.
I know we all have different ways to express our opinions and emotions.
But still in general when I read profiles, most seem to agree on the difference between sub and slave.
Like I said I care a little less these days.
Figure out what suits yourself.
And topping from the bottom does exist in bdsm and in the regular world( what someone named vanilla)
Strange we do all understand that word in the same way. I just find it demeaning to call a roughneck oilworker who has nothing to do with bdsm, VANILLA. [&o] [:D]



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