Hypocrisy and the Law (Full Version)

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BenevolentM -> Hypocrisy and the Law (3/10/2012 10:19:27 PM)

A few minutes ago, I briefly watched a discussion in the news concerning Google wardriving, but that is not what I want to discuss per se. What I want to discuss is hypocrisy and the law. It has become blatantly obvious that there is a protected class or Holy Cow. The captains of industry are not to be touched.

I hate to get Michael Moore on everyone, but people today are being jailed for minor offenses and even in instances where it is not even clear that an offense was committed. Why is it unlikely that the CEO of Google will be arrested for having committed a crime?

Notice that my usage of the term hypocrisy is subtly different from how I used the term in a previous thread. Zeus forbid that I should embrace my inner hypocrite! There I was discussing moral contradiction. Here I am only partially talking about moral contradiction. I am talking about something more specific. I am talking about a potentially unjustified imbalance. I feel that it is potentially unjustified because I do not know what it is. Either this is a topic I am not sufficiently well versed in or something is missing. Christians, Jews, Muslims, and so on will provide a rationale when this sort of thing crops up, but what is the rationale behind protecting the CEO of Google?

Maybe the rationale is that it would have a chilling effect. Is this not the whole point? Perhaps since the powerful are strong and the little people are weak, no real harm is done when you lean on them. For argument sake, let us agree that this is reasonable because it is a fact of life. Is such a rationale sufficiently strong to merit the CEO of Google not being placed in jail?



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/10/2012 10:44:18 PM)

Sensing that I could be more explicit I will say more.

With religion an appeal is usually made to a fundamental limitation, kind of like saying apples fall from the tree to the ground because there is something called gravity and gravity is a fact of life. Does such a fundamental limitation exist in the realm of finance?



tj444 -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/10/2012 11:00:34 PM)

Why in todays world would anyone have an unsecure network in the first place? Its like leaving your wallet outside in your mailbox..



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/10/2012 11:45:05 PM)

quote:

Why in todays world would anyone have an unsecure network in the first place? Its like leaving your wallet outside in your mailbox.

tj444 page 1 post3


Most financial transactions on the Internet are secure via the HTTPS protocol, so it is not entirely the same as leaving your wallet outside in your mailbox. This is taken care for us. The world is into as little security as possible. Call it a fetish. Why is not collarme.com using the HTTPS protocol? Why is not e-mail secure by default? It is too much of a hassle, big brother does not want it, and most people are not savvy enough to ensure that their home network is secure. Even professionals have difficulty achieving this.

quote:

Just a month ago it was reported that Google was collecting your wireless SSID and MAC address as they mapped your home. Now it turns out that Google's wardriving was more invasive than originally reported or acknowledged by Google at the time of that reporting. In what Google is claiming to be just one big oops, the search giant was also capturing data sent over unprotected Wi-Fi networks.

http://antivirus.about.com/b/2010/05/21/google-wardriving-involved-data-sniffing.htm


Personally, the mere fact that they are systematically collecting people's wireless SSID and MAC addresses is worrisome let alone everything else. It is not ok if the government is doing it, but ok if a private corporation is. This is not some random act by a criminal or cops chasing bad people. In a sense, Google may be doing us a favor by bringing this vulnerability to our attention. If so, give the CEO a day in jail instead of a lengthy jail term. I am not aware that Google tried to warn us.



GrandPoobah -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 12:08:11 AM)

There has always been, and likely will always be, a certain disconnect between "normal crime" and "white-collar crime." Part of that image makes sense, in that white collar crime is typically "non-violent." Seldom does it result in physical injury, blood, or "visible damage." That "difference" is real. However, the other "difference" is, obviously, less real. A thief may break into your home and steal belongings, but white collar crime can have exactly the same effect, differing only in the way you discover your loss. In fact, crimes like those committed by the managers of Enron (as an example) are even more heinous, given that they completely destroyed many thousand families, leaving people without jobs, and often with worthless "savings" and retirement savings.

Sadly, I think the best analogy is to look at the rating system for movies. Bloody, gory movies are rated R. Porno films are rated X. Why? Well, the explanation is actually easy to understand, even if it's completely bogus. The rationale is that the viewer "knows" the blood and gore are "fake" while the sex is "real." So, the net result is you can butcher somebody on the screen and it's nowhere near as offensive as watching two people have sex, a perfectly nature human activity.

To compare these two, look at the the treatment of Bernie Madoff and some average, run-of-the-mill murderer. Bernie got "life" but lives in one of those minimum security country-club prisons, while the other guy lives in a hole. Bernie destroyed the lives of hundreds of folks, effectively "killing them" even if they're still alive. The other guy killed just one person.



tj444 -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 12:15:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Personally, the mere fact that they are systematically collecting people's wireless SSID and MAC addresses is worrisome let alone everything else. It is not ok if the government is doing it, but ok if a private corporation is. This is not some random act by a criminal or cops chasing bad people. In a sense, Google may be doing us a favor by bringing this vulnerability to our attention. If so, give the CEO a day in jail instead of a lengthy jail term. I am not aware that Google tried to warn us.

Its a grey area as far as I can see,.. so why would the ceo get jail time? the govt has not kept up with technology and protecting you.. There have been lots of articles, etc on wardriving, that is nothing new so why would you expect google to warn you on what is already public and common knowledge.. btw, privacy laws in the US are not that good or strong.. Your SSNs are basically public info, anyone with a couple of bucks can access that online.. I find it strange that you say it is not ok if the govt is doing it.. geeze, they are the worst for wanting all the info they can get on people.. they bloody well monitor all internet traffic, "private" emails, etc.. I believe they got microsoft to give them a backdoor entry into anyones computer if they want to.. You know it was first discovered by Germany, not the US govt..



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 12:23:23 AM)

I wonder how the Masons would handle this as an internal matter where a Mason accuses another Mason of an impropriety if the CEO of Google was a Mason and the person bringing the charge was a fellow Mason. The Masons believed that they were the Guardians of the Republic.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 12:35:21 AM)

tj444, my impression is you are saying, give up. Since people did not start a revolution over this yesterday, why bother doing it today? It must not be a big deal. The sky has not fallen yet, but is this not what people were thinking prior to the Global Financial Crisis? The sky has not fallen yet, so everything is just fine.

Isn't this like sex where you think about all the good that it does you, but not the bad? The empirical test appears to be if it doesn't outright kill you, it isn't bad.

It doesn't matter where you look. Society appears to have completely lost its moral compass.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:03:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

It doesn't matter where you look. Society appears to have completely lost its moral compass.


It is the Nietzsche Will to Power thing. On page 12 post 240 in Hypocrisy or Obsession I wrote, "What Nietzsche argued is that the path ahead is directly before us and all we need do is steam shovel ourselves forward." It may be for this reason why we do not concern ourselves with such things. They do not believe in God or worse yet they believe in God and know the end is near.



tj444 -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah
To compare these two, look at the the treatment of Bernie Madoff and some average, run-of-the-mill murderer. Bernie got "life" but lives in one of those minimum security country-club prisons, while the other guy lives in a hole. Bernie destroyed the lives of hundreds of folks, effectively "killing them" even if they're still alive. The other guy killed just one person.

I find it very odd that people go all beserk about Madoff when at the same time they hate the 1% so dam much but its the 1% that Madoff ripped off.. It was people's own greed that did them in.. and it seems that he has hero status in jail.. lol

"In prison he doesn’t have to hide his lack of conscience. In fact, he’s a hero for it."
"From MCC, Madoff explained the trap he was in. “People just kept throwing money at me,” Madoff related to a prison consultant who advised him on how to endure prison life. “Some guy wanted to invest, and if I said no, the guy said, ‘What, I’m not good enough?’ ” One day, Shannon Hay, a drug dealer who lived in the same unit in Butner as Madoff, asked about his crimes. “He told me his side. He took money off of people who were rich and greedy and wanted more,” "
"Quickly, the flow came to Madoff. From the moment he alighted, he had “groupies,” according to several inmates. Prisoners trailed him as he took his exercise around the track. (Persico had also attracted a throng when he arrived, but was disgusted and quickly put an end to it.) “They buttered him up,” one former inmate told me. “Everybody was trying to kiss his ass,” says Shawn Evans, who spent 28 months in Butner. They even clamored for his autograph. "
http://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/66468/

http://washingtonindependent.com/22504/the-sob-stories-of-madoffs-wealthy-victims



tj444 -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:11:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

tj444, my impression is you are saying, give up. Since people did not start a revolution over this yesterday, why bother doing it today? It must not be a big deal. The sky has not fallen yet, but is this not what people were thinking prior to the Global Financial Crisis? The sky has not fallen yet, so everything is just fine.

Isn't this like sex where you think about all the good that it does you, but not the bad? The empirical test appears to be if it doesn't outright kill you, it isn't bad.

It doesn't matter where you look. Society appears to have completely lost its moral compass.

What i am saying is you elected the govt and there is a saying that people get the govt they deserve.. Voters are the ones that should have and control the leash on govt but they have not been vigilant and now its the govt that has the leash and control on Americans.. its the tail wagging the dog.. And its gonna be a long time for ya'll to finally do something to change that..



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:18:39 AM)

Who has time? I do what I can to be savior of the world, but people like me are unsexed. It's hard.



tj444 -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:22:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Who has time? I do what I can to be savior of the world, but people like me are unsexed. It's hard.

well,.. allrighty then.. now you know why its the state its in.. [8|]



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:46:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

... now you know why its the state its in. [8|]


In a word, yes. There are still matters I wanted to get into in my previous thread that I didn't get a chance to cover. There is reason to believe that the problem is so intrinsic that no worldly authority which includes the supernatural is sufficient to overcome the problem. What this suggests contrary to what I wrote in post 9, post 9 may not be entirely correct. It is an easy conclusion to come to and one that is likely to at least be partially true. What could make it partially true is that even believers generally speaking are rarely true believers. All or most of us are atheists in one sense or another. This may be sufficient or partially sufficient to explain the observation I made in post 9.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 1:53:58 AM)

quote:

which includes the supernatural

BenevolentM page 1 post 14


What am I saying here? I am saying that God exists outside of the supernatural.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 3:55:37 AM)

Maybe it isn't entirely a matter or not people are true believers per se. Perhaps it is because it is so fundamentally hopeless that there is little you can do about it even if you are a captain of industry or a lawmaker, but I do suspect that it has something to do with people in general are atheists. They are seduced by the world and pay it more heed than they really need to and should. There are not enough people like me.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 5:02:32 AM)

GrandPoobah I think you raised some good points. With leaders of state directly or indirectly to mess up people or society at large is an occupational hazard, just another day at the office. This could be said of businessmen as well. So the usually presumption is that this is just business as usual and maybe that is the problem, namely too much presumption.



MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 6:06:50 AM)

Its often said an atheist has less of a moral compass then a religious person.
Not really in my respect cause I wont be forgiven for my wrongdoings, while a christian can murder and be forgiven just like that poof!
That being said is not an excuse that atheists often dont give a shit what is right or wrong. Just as long as it is right for them.



BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 6:35:12 AM)

In the eyes of Christianity all your good deeds will ultimately amount to nothing if Christ says I do not know you. It may seem superstitious, but it matters. I hope your good deeds will amount to something. Perhaps if you believe in me, Christ will regard this as sufficient. Maybe if I tell him about you he will say, you know his name does seem familiar. Why take the risk. Invite Him into your life. Have tea with Him or whatever you do in the land of the Dutch. If you are into doing right, He may take you under his wing and say, "I like this guy. He's refreshing." and if you say, "But that would be so hypocritical of me to do something like that." Just remember what I've told you, "Embrace your inner hypocrite." This is not rocket science. Wink, even you can do it.



MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/11/2012 6:55:20 AM)

Christians,muslims and jews just defiled the legacy of God and Christ too much for me to embrace it. On a personal level I can only believe what I deem most plausible. Thats why I say my god is nature. Simple and easy to defend.
But I would like to believe in god as many atheists would because it would mean eternal justice.
Problem is too many things cannot be justified, even in an afterlife IMO.
Thats why I say my god is not bothered with ethics, Nature is only interested in progress.
Now Im gonna fuck a Ho behind a dutch window. Women dont have that pleasure, they can only find gigolos online.
A man has to open his wallet for easy NSA sex, a woman only has to open her mouth for it.
Double standard? Yes!
Hypocritical? mwaa, I say no, to each their own benefits. We dont have to bleed each mooncycle do we?[:D]
Will it ever change, yes to a point you cannot change it any further. Or maybe some do want it and make men bleed just the same and we become hermaphrodites..... No thanks. Difference is good. Nature never copies identical objects, there is always a difference. However small that may be.



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