RE: Hypocrisy and the Law

RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

Moonhead -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 9:16:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Laws should be simplified and left up to the judge to judge. [img]http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/reviews/extra/2008/trades/dredd/flint2.jpg[/img] ?

MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 10:08:46 AM)
Kinda had that comin I guess.[:D]

BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 12:16:03 PM)
You have not studied these concepts. You have no idea what you are talking about. What you wrote is drivel. Rule of force? Since when has it been otherwise. I am talking about its justification.

BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 6:34:48 PM)
Atheism appears to come in two varieties. Those who can cope with moral contradiction and those who cannot.

BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 6:41:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevolentM Atheism appears to come in two varieties. Those who can cope with moral contradiction and those who cannot. Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism

MrRodgers -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/12/2012 7:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah To compare these two, look at the the treatment of Bernie Madoff and some average, run-of-the-mill murderer. Bernie got "life" but lives in one of those minimum security country-club prisons, while the other guy lives in a hole. Bernie destroyed the lives of hundreds of folks, effectively "killing them" even if they're still alive. The other guy killed just one person. I find it very odd that people go all beserk about Madoff when at the same time they hate the 1% so dam much but its the 1% that Madoff ripped off.. It was people's own greed that did them in.. and it seems that he has hero status in jail.. lol "In prison he doesn’t have to hide his lack of conscience. In fact, he’s a hero for it." "From MCC, Madoff explained the trap he was in. “People just kept throwing money at me,” Madoff related to a prison consultant who advised him on how to endure prison life. “Some guy wanted to invest, and if I said no, the guy said, ‘What, I’m not good enough?’ ” One day, Shannon Hay, a drug dealer who lived in the same unit in Butner as Madoff, asked about his crimes. “He told me his side. He took money off of people who were rich and greedy and wanted more,” " "Quickly, the flow came to Madoff. From the moment he alighted, he had “groupies,” according to several inmates. Prisoners trailed him as he took his exercise around the track. (Persico had also attracted a throng when he arrived, but was disgusted and quickly put an end to it.) “They buttered him up,” one former inmate told me. “Everybody was trying to kiss his ass,” says Shawn Evans, who spent 28 months in Butner. They even clamored for his autograph. " http://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/66468/ http://washingtonindependent.com/22504/the-sob-stories-of-madoffs-wealthy-victims The hypocrisy is that the only difference between Madoff and wall street where fraud seems a culture, is that wall street got a bailout. Corporate crime is a civil crime or financial crime and almost never results in any criminal charges. As for criminal corporate crime...there is almost none. The corporation being a legal abstract, is designed for private profit without private liability.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 6:47:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevolentM You have not studied these concepts. You have no idea what you are talking about. What you wrote is drivel. Rule of force? Since when has it been otherwise. I am talking about its justification. That's what we're both talking about home schooler.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 7:00:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani I remember Brennus... saying Vae Victis when he sacked Rome in 450 BC. But there is another thing he said, wich all lawyers can attest to these days. " Because you romans wrote down the law, there is always a way I can circumvent your law. Our law is unwritten, you cannot outrun our law.'' Just a technicality. Everybody in Holland is supposed to know the law. But that is impossible. Laws should be simplified and left up to the judge to judge. Any courtcase that misfired on a technicality is an abomination, for lack of a better word. Our laws are based on the concept that any law that treats the innocent as if they were guilty is an abomination, the price of that is the requirement for due diligence in the prosecution of the law, which in turn generates those "technicalities" when those requirements are not observed. And unwritten law is nothing but loopholes, goes back to the conundrum of moral ambiguity as the price of consciousness. I hear the usual, you don't want to think no more, and a noetic species trying to act anoetically rapidly becomes De Sades war of all against all - pretty much where we've gotten ourselves now, again, and you both should know that in any contest between god and Mammon, Mammon always has the advantage. So in the end, it usually amounts to about the same thing, that's an established historical pattern. Mammon, you see, has a certain substance that god lacks - god looks good from a distance, Mammon looks a lot better up close.

MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 7:26:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani I remember Brennus... saying Vae Victis when he sacked Rome in 450 BC. But there is another thing he said, wich all lawyers can attest to these days. " Because you romans wrote down the law, there is always a way I can circumvent your law. Our law is unwritten, you cannot outrun our law.'' Just a technicality. Everybody in Holland is supposed to know the law. But that is impossible. Laws should be simplified and left up to the judge to judge. Any courtcase that misfired on a technicality is an abomination, for lack of a better word. Our laws are based on the concept that any law that treats the innocent as if they were guilty is an abomination, the price of that is the requirement for due diligence in the prosecution of the law, which in turn generates those "technicalities" when those requirements are not observed. And unwritten law is nothing but loopholes, goes back to the conundrum of moral ambiguity as the price of consciousness. I hear the usual, you don't want to think no more, and a noetic species trying to act anoetically rapidly becomes De Sades war of all against all - pretty much where we've gotten ourselves now, again, and you both should know that in any contest between god and Mammon, Mammon always has the advantage. So in the end, it usually amounts to about the same thing, that's an established historical pattern. Mammon, you see, has a certain substance that god lacks - god looks good from a distance, Mammon looks a lot better up close. You're right unwritten law can be one big loophole. It's just a wise lesson I think we should consider, in writing down the law. Like one law could suffice that technical loopholes are prohibited. That is different from loopholes based on interpretation of the law. Its the same with taxes. I prefer to go back to the most basic sense and from there move on again.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 7:52:37 AM)
Nope, the Anglo-Saxon legal system evolved the way it has because no Two crimes are exactly a alike - what is a crime in one instance is not a crime in another - i.e., murder, what is it, how do you define it? "Thou shalt not kill" is all well and and good in theory, but in praxis, there are myriad instances and circumstances - heroism in war is murder in peace. The only way to determine justly what has occurred and whether it's a crime or not, is to establish a legal fiction, and determine if a given case satisfies the definition of that fiction - i.e., "white collar crime" - is it a crime? Or corporate crime - like Mr. Rodgers alluded to above, how can one commit a crime against an abstract entity? Murder is probably the least ambiguous example, but we we still apply myriad gradations w/regard to action and intent in order to satisfy the legal fiction of what is "murder" - i.e, we have First, Second and Third degree murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, justifiable homicide, etc., etc. and rule of law applies it to everyone equally. Without all those gradations, necessary for the rule of law, it just becomes a binary call, yea or nay, and it all depends on who's doing the judging - the law rapidly becomes a popularity contest, a justification of wealth and power, and unjust law really ain't no law at all.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 7:59:49 AM)
i.e., if you're starting with law without first defining justice, you're in arbitrary territory from the start, you're putting the cart before the horse. That is, if you believe that to be called "the law", it must be just - otherwise, what you have is simply arbitrary coercion and violence - crime, essentially.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:03:56 AM)
Police and criminals are doing exactly the same things: kicking in doors and beating peoples heads in, taking their shit - the only difference is that the police are theoretically charged with doing it in manner consistent with a consensus of what is and is not just.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:07:05 AM)
It ain't perfect, but it rolls, and it's taken a while and a lot of hard lessons to get here - BM's just trying to reinvent the flat tire.

Real0ne -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:09:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani I remember Brennus... saying Vae Victis when he sacked Rome in 450 BC. But there is another thing he said, wich all lawyers can attest to these days. " Because you romans wrote down the law, there is always a way I can circumvent your law. Our law is unwritten, you cannot outrun our law.'' Just a technicality. Everybody in Holland is supposed to know the law. But that is impossible. Laws should be simplified and left up to the judge to judge. Any courtcase that misfired on a technicality is an abomination, for lack of a better word. I would completely disagree. It should be left strictly up to the jury, and go back to having court masters keeping the judge in a strictly administrative capacity. Its pretty tough to corrupt everyone. If they wont and the courts are such a profit center now days they never will do that then appeals should be free. Most of the bullshit law created by the legislature would be abolished if EVERYTHING including parking tickets were to be adjudicated by jury court in not not only criminal but civil cases as well. The government literally has a blank check through the court and legislative systems and you can see through time literally the same cases argued repeatedly through out history. The people might be tards but they have nothing little to gain by corrupt rulings, a corporation of judges on the other hand are raping this country. I would estimate the patriot act along generated well into a trillion in revenue since its passing.

Real0ne -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:12:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Police and criminals are doing exactly the same things: kicking in doors and beating peoples heads in, taking their shit - the only difference is that the police are theoretically charged with doing it in manner consistent with a consensus of what is and is not just. in some states they can keep 80+ percent of the sale from goods confiscated. they are sanctioned thugs, no different from a standing army.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:15:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Police and criminals are doing exactly the same things: kicking in doors and beating peoples heads in, taking their shit - the only difference is that the police are theoretically charged with doing it in manner consistent with a consensus of what is and is not just. in some states they can keep 80+ percent of the sale from goods confiscated. they are sanctioned thugs, no different from a standing army. There ya go, the "war on drugs" is the model here - anytime the cons start banging the war drum, look out.

Real0ne -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:22:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah To compare these two, look at the the treatment of Bernie Madoff and some average, run-of-the-mill murderer. Bernie got "life" but lives in one of those minimum security country-club prisons, while the other guy lives in a hole. Bernie destroyed the lives of hundreds of folks, effectively "killing them" even if they're still alive. The other guy killed just one person. I find it very odd that people go all beserk about Madoff when at the same time they hate the 1% so dam much but its the 1% that Madoff ripped off.. It was people's own greed that did them in.. and it seems that he has hero status in jail.. lol "In prison he doesn’t have to hide his lack of conscience. In fact, he’s a hero for it." "From MCC, Madoff explained the trap he was in. “People just kept throwing money at me,” Madoff related to a prison consultant who advised him on how to endure prison life. “Some guy wanted to invest, and if I said no, the guy said, ‘What, I’m not good enough?’ ” One day, Shannon Hay, a drug dealer who lived in the same unit in Butner as Madoff, asked about his crimes. “He told me his side. He took money off of people who were rich and greedy and wanted more,” " "Quickly, the flow came to Madoff. From the moment he alighted, he had “groupies,” according to several inmates. Prisoners trailed him as he took his exercise around the track. (Persico had also attracted a throng when he arrived, but was disgusted and quickly put an end to it.) “They buttered him up,” one former inmate told me. “Everybody was trying to kiss his ass,” says Shawn Evans, who spent 28 months in Butner. They even clamored for his autograph. " http://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/66468/ http://washingtonindependent.com/22504/the-sob-stories-of-madoffs-wealthy-victims The hypocrisy is that the only difference between Madoff and wall street where fraud seems a culture, is that wall street got a bailout. Corporate crime is a civil crime or financial crime and almost never results in any criminal charges. As for criminal corporate crime...there is almost none. The corporation being a legal abstract, is designed for private profit without private liability. corruption is always around money power and unequal opportunity and that lives in the civil side, which is precisely why we need mandatory absolute jury courts for everything. How can we prevent corrupt courts or government when they can simply rico our asses? Attorney Jailed Denied Rights for Exposing Judicial Corruption, Richard Fine California

MrBukani -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/13/2012 8:25:37 AM)
Its good to disagree. We dont have a jury in Holland and look at the jury system as more vunerable to corruption. Plus a jury is often played with emotionally. Not to say we dont have plenty examples of corrupt judges here. Its hard to tell wich is more secure. I dont have a definite answer, except that lawbooks can be simplified IMO.

BenevolentM -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/14/2012 4:24:58 AM)
Why is justification important? If I have to explain it, there is little point in explaining it.

xssve -> RE: Hypocrisy and the Law (3/14/2012 6:57:33 AM)
Justification which requires no justification? Lol. Hint: if you can't or won't explain why it is just, it's not a justification.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875