RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 6:45:46 AM)

This article links Bails' actions with some other instances of murderous behaviour by ex-soldiers in the US recently and poses some pertinent questions.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/trauma-of-tours-may-link-us-tragedies-20120318-1vdst.html




TheHeretic -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 8:20:14 AM)

Is there some point in the consistent mis-spelling of his name, Tweak? "Bail," is the last thing he's going to get, and it's safe to assume he'll remain as tightly confined as a "bale" of hay.




Moonhead -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 8:51:22 AM)

Until the court decides to slap him on his wrists and send him on his way or (at worst) discharge him on medical grounds.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 8:59:45 AM)

fast reply

Imagine the title of this thread was "Afganistan serviceman shoots American civilians", and tell me how much against the death penalty folks would be.




tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 6:31:54 PM)

Evidence is beginning to emerge that there may have more than one US soldier involved in the maasacre:

Directly after the incident, Reuters reported multiple witnesses claimed multiple soldiers were present at the scenes and carried out the crime. The acclaimed Pajhwok Afghan News (initially funded by USAID, its co-founder Farida Nekzad, won the 2008 International Women's Media Foundation C
ourage in Journalism Award) is reporting, Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre: probe :

KANDAHAR CITY (PAN): A parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday’s killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.

The probing delegation includes [several members of the National Assembly of Afghanistan] lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.

The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

This report should surprise no one following bulletins from Afghanistan over the last few days. Locals have insisted all along there were multiple soldiers involved, and the anger has spread since the attack. Militants launched an attack on a government delegation visiting Panjwai on Tuesday when two of President Hamid Karzai's brothers and several top security officials were visiting. Effigies of Obama were burned, one Afghan soldier was killed as well as three militants. On the same day in the city of Jalalabad 600 students took to the streets condemning the Kandahar slaughter and chanting "Death to America! Death to Obama!"

The Taliban has announced they have called off 'peace talks'. They have suspended all dialogue with Americans. Thursday President Karzai told the US it must pull back its troops from village areas and allow Afghan forces to take the lead in security. Yesterday the BBC reported that Karzai accused the US of not fully co-operating with a probe into the killings.


The BBC's Bilal Sarwary:'Effigies of Obama were burned'

BBC

A member of the delegation, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, told AP the governor was trying to explain to locals that the shooting was an isolated incident.

"But the people were just shouting and they were very angry. They didn't listen to the governor. They accused him of defending the Americans instead of defending the Kandahari people," Mr Ayubi said.

Anti-US sentiment is already high in Afghanistan after soldiers burned some copies of the Koran at a Nato base in Kabul last month, sparking deadly riots across the country.

The Taliban has renewed threats of revenge attacks, saying it would behead "sadistic" American soldiers.

It sounds like the people of Afghanistan are fed up and not backing down.

Lali asked the Afghan government, the United Nations and the international community to ensure the perpetrators were punished in Afghanistan.

He expressed his anger that the US soldier, the prime suspect in the shooting, had been flown out of Afghanistan to Kuwait.

He said the people they met had warned if the responsible troops were not punished, they would launch a movement against Afghans who had agreed to foreign troops’ presence in Afghanistan under the first Bonn conference in 2001.

The lawmaker said the Wolesi Jirga would not sit silent until the killers were prosecuted in Afghanistan. "If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga would declare foreign troops as occupying forces, like the Russians," Lali warned.

Nothing about the Afghan parliamentary probe in the US media. No surprise he
re.


http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8d38ef747c2061bb9c6137961&id=e824ca050b&e=033310bb29#mctoc7







DaddySatyr -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/18/2012 6:47:08 PM)

I've never been against the death penalty but, apparently, I'm a barbarian.

Nail 'em up, I say!



Peace and comfort,



Michael




tweakabelle -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/19/2012 12:41:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Is there some point in the consistent mis-spelling of his name, Tweak? "Bail," is the last thing he's going to get, and it's safe to assume he'll remain as tightly confined as a "bale" of hay.

Please excuse my mis-spellings.

It's been reported that as many as 30% of retuning servicemen are suffering some degree of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Those who have served multiple tours of duty figure more highly in these figures. Already a number of criminal outrages involving returned servicemen have occurred. It seems likely that more will occur in the future.

These matters might be slightly more important than my lamentable spelling errors. To most people that is. I'm not sure how cheer leaders for military interventions rate the two matters comparatively.

How's about this arrangement Mr TheHeretic? I'll focus a bit more on my spelling and you focus a bit more on the disastrous effects that military adventures in the Middle East are having upon the region, your country and your country's returning soldiers? Do we have a deal?




ViborgHerre -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/19/2012 3:09:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've never been against the death penalty but, apparently, I'm a barbarian.

Nail 'em up, I say!

Peace and comfort,
Michael


I do agree - death penalty is a barbarian punishment.




MrBukani -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/19/2012 3:16:17 AM)

I have given the death penalty a lotta thought. Besides the point justice is flawed and many innocent people have been in jail for decades.

This is my view. Death is an easy cop out.

A life sentence can be much crueler for the criminal.
I would sent a letter each day saying "Do you like living in a hole?"[:D]

But thats just me, maybe I am more of a sadist then I thought I was.




Aswad -> RE: U.S. Serviceman shoots Afghan civilians (3/19/2012 9:47:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's been reported that as many as 30% of retuning servicemen are suffering some degree of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Those who have served multiple tours of duty figure more highly in these figures. Already a number of criminal outrages involving returned servicemen have occurred. It seems likely that more will occur in the future.


Our figures are 20% of the returning servicemen, unless you believe the military (which uses 10~15% in their reports). However, the vast majority who acquire PTSD, here, do so in their first term, and do not get another term. This is because we now screen them, whereas earlier we used to do this on a self reported basis, which people would lie about for reasons that are obvious to any serviceman (whether or not one agrees with making that choice). Going back to the service is more appealing than going back to civilian life.

We have had some incidents with those that have returned, usually nothing serious, and most places the police and neighbours will take the time to learn about the conditions of those that have PTSD; how to deal with them, what to avoid, the right way to talk them down when the flashbacks set in, and so forth. I imagine this has played a part in keeping the incidents down to a minimum. Sceening and training is also likely to have played a part, which I have delved into before.

Guess the screening and doctrinal differences might also play a part in avoiding random massacres.

Health,
al-Aswad.




TheHeretic -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/19/2012 10:06:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

A life sentence can be much crueler for the criminal.

I would sent a letter each day saying "Do you like living in a hole?"[:D]




To the first statement, the point is not to be cruel but to do justice. Some crimes demand the ultimate penalty.

To the second, you might get a reply to your letter, telling you that while the food sucks, he is still a violent predator, moving in his own little world, with a smiley face next to his autograph, and offer to sell some dirty underwear.




Moonhead -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/20/2012 5:51:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
To the first statement, the point is not to be cruel but to do justice. Some crimes demand the ultimate penalty.

That's debatable: the American prison system has a reputation for being the most punitive (and least concerned with rehabilitation) in the western world.




Nosathro -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/20/2012 7:46:34 AM)

Apparently this guy is not the poor PTSD that has been played out. He is a convicted swindler, he and another person working at an Investment Compay, took some clients money and he took some elderly person savings. Now I know were he got the money for the expensive lawyer. He also has a warrant out for him in Flordia for drinking as well.




angelikaJ -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/20/2012 8:27:57 AM)

You have your timeline wrong: that happened before he enlisted in 2001.
So, the TBI and the PTSD all occurred after that...you know, during his 4 tours of duty.

Also:
The warrant dates back to 1998.
It was originally a $65.00 citation for possessing alcohol on the beach.
He did not pay it.
The warrant expired 9 yrs ago and the whole case dropped in 2006.





farglebargle -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/20/2012 9:29:20 AM)

Boo Fucking Hoo. Maybe if he didn't kill all them innocent people, I'd give a shit.

He can cry to Jesus. Maybe he cares... Oh, wait... Unpardonable sin... Burn in hell scumbag, burn in hell....

The sooner he's not poisoning the same air our families breath, the better off we all will be.





Nosathro -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/21/2012 8:03:38 AM)

He is also a conman who after being ordered to repay a man he and another guy took for his life savings plus, a sum over a million dollar, he enlists..




thompsonx -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/21/2012 3:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

He is also a conman who after being ordered to repay a man he and another guy took for his life savings plus, a sum over a million dollar, he enlists..



Perhaps it was a drug deal gone bad and not ptsd at all.




deathtothepixies -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/21/2012 4:35:12 PM)

I am going to make myself fairly unpopular with what I am about to say. Tweakabelle said something in her first post about how the winning of hearts and minds was going to be impossible after this incident. Personally I don't think invading and destroying someones country is ever a good way to win hearts and minds but that is not what I came here to say. If the people here are a fair representation of America and what Americans think( most here and most commenting on this thread are American I think) then you will never win a single heart or mind. I have read 100 posts and there is not one word, not even ONE WORD of sympathy or compassion for the 16 dead Afgan civilians that this soldier killed.
I think that is shameful.




thompsonx -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/21/2012 5:07:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

I am going to make myself fairly unpopular with what I am about to say. Tweakabelle said something in her first post about how the winning of hearts and minds was going to be impossible after this incident. Personally I don't think invading and destroying someones country is ever a good way to win hearts and minds but that is not what I came here to say. If the people here are a fair representation of America and what Americans think( most here and most commenting on this thread are American I think) then you will never win a single heart or mind. I have read 100 posts and there is not one word, not even ONE WORD of sympathy or compassion for the 16 dead Afgan civilians that this soldier killed.
I think that is shameful.


Telling the truth has never won the hearts and minds of anyone but if you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow...at least until they can get a clean shot at you.
If it was a dope deal gone bad then it hopefully will end as a shakespearian tragedy(stage littered with the bodies of the bad guys.) If it was ptsd then we have only a tragic loss that those who started this shit in the sandbox will lable "colateral damage"




thishereboi -> RE: U.S. Soldier shoots Afghan civilians (3/21/2012 6:00:23 PM)

Well I counted 18 from the US, 6 from other countries and 2 with no profiles. Now do you honestly think that the opinions of 18 individuals represents the opinions of over 300 million people who live here? And what about the other 6? Do you think they speak for everyone in their country? Now you just got here, so you probably are not familiar with kevin. But he is from the uk, would you be ok if we judged you on what he has posted?

But I will agree with you on one thing. The ones killed in the attack deserve sympathy. They are the victims in this.




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