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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 9:43:35 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a


While it varies, you're assuming there is a power exchange in Top bottom dynamics..

Yup. I have a friend that's a maso, but not a submissive. She wants a sadist to beat her, fuck her and then go home. She has absolutely no interest in being submissive at all.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 9:49:11 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		yep, O.. that's usuAlly me.... (fuck me beat me get the fuck out)

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 10:05:54 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp
However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment. So who is serving whom?

This is exactly why I dislike the term "serving" in this context. It's yet another of the BDSM fantasy terms that when applied to real life breaks down. Yet rather than simply abandon the term as impractical in real life the standard answer is to produce convoluted chains of reasoning to try to make sense of it.

In simple terms, in any consensual relationship, I'm assuming that all parties are serving each other.

I'm the first to admit that I don't know about one night only play relationships but it still seems obvious that if both parties are engaging in the activity by their own choice then both parties must be getting something out of it. As noted by Roch, that "something" may not be direct sexual pleasure due to masochism but they are there for a reason.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 10:29:39 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?



Really?? Please tell me your not some 12 year old sneaking on to a computer, because no grown ass adult is so simple minded. In the real world ppl smack, beat, tie up rape and a whole bunch of other stuff for a myriad of reason and YES the other person may or may not enjoi it.
BadOne


< Message edited by SailingBum -- 3/16/2012 11:22:54 AM >

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 10:34:57 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

In my case I am X and the livin is y. I can assure you he hates pain. He hates being hit, whipped, poked, anything of the sort. I do it anyway, mostly because I think it's funny. We all for the most part do things for our own reasons. I think you are trying to hard to understand everyone else when the only thing you really need to understand is yourself and the other person, or persons, you are in actual realationships with.


Yeppers


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 10:52:17 AM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline 		The BDSM jargon is just ridiculous. Too many people watch stupid ass porn sites like "Training of O" and think thats whats reality is. I get hit with this shit ALL THE TIME.

Just yesterday I had some guy message me about how he wanted me as his slave and I would do nothing but be naked and my goal in life would be strictly to suck and be used by his cock. I told him Id rather be shot in the face with a Remington 870 Pump Action shotgun at point blank range.

When someone has to break this shit down into some essay explanation that really answers nothing, ( someone might as well ask - why are we here?, what is the meaning of life? )- Its time to go outside and get some fresh air.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp
However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment. So who is serving whom?

This is exactly why I dislike the term "serving" in this context. It's yet another of the BDSM fantasy terms that when applied to real life breaks down. Yet rather than simply abandon the term as impractical in real life the standard answer is to produce convoluted chains of reasoning to try to make sense of it.

In simple terms, in any consensual relationship, I'm assuming that all parties are serving each other.

I'm the first to admit that I don't know about one night only play relationships but it still seems obvious that if both parties are engaging in the activity by their own choice then both parties must be getting something out of it. As noted by Roch, that "something" may not be direct sexual pleasure due to masochism but they are there for a reason.



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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 10:54:30 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
I think you are trying to hard to understand everyone else when the only thing you really need to understand is yourself and the other person, or persons, you are in actual realationships with.

Perhaps... sort of. But I, at least, have certainly come to understand myself better through the efforts to understand other people. Not infrequently I learn really interesting things about myself by looking at others. Then, of course, is the general edification of learning about the real world in all it's varied wierdity rather than the textbook relationship memes that nobody really conforms to (vanilla or BDSM memes, it hardly matters).

In the end though, I think the sentiment is right. It is of utmost importance to understand one's own self first and one's own relationship/partner second. Everything else either plays into that or comes up a distant third. But I generally go with the "no man is an island" concept. We are a highly social species.


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 1:36:28 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Except of course in those cases where X enjoys hitting, and Y doesn't like it, but likes X and is willing to take it in order to make X happy.

Your assumption that there are no known X's who enjoy hitting, is what's wrong in your statement, OP. That's why they're called sadists, because they get off on inflicting pain.

The Man isn't much of a sadist, except for nipple torture. Trust me that when he's got me tied down and is working his way through the clamps bag, it is not for my benefit. If he wanted to do something for me, he'd be buying me dark chocolate instead. Making my nipples sore is his idea of a really great time. Not mine. But I grit my teeth and bear it because I like to make him happy.


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 2:07:47 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?



Crikey, the crap that keeps people awake....

It's called complementing needs. The best, most successful relationships are where both parties are getting their individual needs met...! This is not groundbreaking, cutting-edge evolution.

Your "house of straw" argument falls apart from here - "We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit."

Actually, I and probably many Dom/mes, do enjoy inflicting some level of pain. Not being an abusive arsehole (myself), that enjoyment is tempered by the need to find a *complementing* submissive partner who equally enjoys "being hit", as you put it.

So if I rework your flawed conclusion, presto: So X is hitting Y to satisfy X & Y's enjoyment. We are each "serving" (I prefer "satisfying") a RELATIONSHIP comprising opposing but *complementing* needs.

When I see these all too regular "sub has all the power" arguments, I usually find either one very UNsatisfied sub or overly conflicted "dom" at the core of them. Which are you? And are you sure you're even ready for a power exchange relationship? This being your second day here n all....

Focus.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 2:37:03 PM   
Alecta


Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?



Your fundamental assumption that SM and Domination are the same is wrong, as is your assumption that the only reason X is hitting Y is because Y enjoys being hit. Therefore your entire hypothesis is flawed.

It's all in the context and nuances of the relationship and wants an needs of X and Y.
If Y enjoys being hurt, he's a masochist, not a submissive. Not all masochists are submissive. not all submissives are maoschists.
If X enjoys inflicting pain, he is a sadist. Not all sadists are dominant, not all Dom/mes are sadists.

Dominance and submission is not seen on who's on which end of the whip or rope, but in the why and how X and Y do the thing. When Y does as X says regardless of his feelings towards the actual tasks, that is submission. When X makes Y do something because X can, that is dominance. Of course, there are many more shades of grey between the reasons and philosophies of submission and dominance, but it all contributes to the point that which end of the whip you're on is not an indication of your D/s orientation.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 4:06:07 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I can't argue this at all, Jeff. You are, in my opinion, correct. But I have never seen you make a general statement about how anything has to be one way or people are lieing about it. I believe from reading the OP's posts that he is searching for an understanding of himself and why he wants things the way he does and why everyone doesn't just want things the way he does. Either that or he is a huge douche and thinks he knows the one way to do this and that he should be allowed to tell others what it is.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 4:17:03 PM   
hellionsLight


Posts: 241
Joined: 10/18/2011
From: Kearney, NE
Status: offline 		M/s or D/s is not the same as S/M.

Maybe no one is serving ...no one.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 4:32:45 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?

Spoken like a man who has not enjoyed the experience of a Dominant who was doing whatever it was that she was doing for her own pleasure. 


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 4:59:51 PM   
LunaM


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/3/2012
Status: offline 		FR
Both are in control of each other but the Master is usually the one with the authority. I was careful how I used my terms, of course.

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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 7:01:40 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		well in our relationship he's not serving me at all. I don't always enjoy being hit. I don't always enjoy the WAY he hits. He does it because he wants to and I enjoy being of service to him. I like seeing him smile and laugh and being happy.

That doesn't mean he doesn't do things to me he knows I love. The difference however is I get no say in if he does stuff for me or not. It's his choice and he does what he wants, not because I want it or like it.


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/16/2012 7:56:56 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?



This ties into the whole idea of the simplistic idea of "You can't punish a masochist with pain."
Depending on the masochist and depending on the relationship dynamic, you sometimes can.

There are many people who may love being spanked, whipped, flogged and/or caned etc, but within the narrow scope of actual punishment (as opposed to 'funishment') this formerly enjoyable activity is entirely un-enjoyable.

Also, to the OP, you are missing the point that if a dominant partner is creating an array of sensations and the submissive partner is responding they are giving to (or "serving", if you will) their dominant partner.
I have safe-worded from intense pleasure before.


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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/17/2012 12:44:51 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: menowimp

This is something that has always bothered me a bit in BDSM.

X is whipping Y. So the obvious impression is that X is the dominatory personality and Y is the submissive personality.

However, let's put it into real context. We don't go around hitting each other as a normal rule. Therefore the only reason X is hitting Y in this case is because Y enjoys being hit. So X is hitting Y to satisfy Y's enjoyment.

So who is serving whom?


I'm never quite sure why a human being on a planet with billions of other human beings would even try explaining the complex things that those humans do in a black and white statement. I'm sure somewhere with some people your statement of X hitting Y because Y enjoys it is true. The weird part comes in where you assume that is wrong somehow for that to happen. So what if X is serving Y?

Other people have other reasons and X serving Y comes no where near being the truth. Whatever permutation works for those two people is the right way to do it. If things didn't work for BOTH of the people involved then they wouldn't share company together - who cares what they find to be mutually enjoyable?

I don't like pain, don't like it at all. I go out of my way to avoid it. My Dom hurts me sometimes and it works for us. He likes doing it because he likes to see me accept something I don't like for him. Gets him off physically and mentally. I like to have him do something I don't really like, because it gets me off mentally and physically to do something he likes and wants to see. He is NOT serving me in that scenario. However when he does other things that I like perhaps he is. So what? We enjoy our relationship, we want to keep it, we'll keep on doing things for each other in order for that to happen.


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/17/2012 12:54:33 PM   
CRYPTICLXVI


Posts: 3907
Status: offline 		I had a sub who did like pain, she like it a lot. She didn't like it when it was used as punishment though. She disobeyed, she brought the slapper, bent over and was beaten until there was bruising, welts. She was crying, hard... she was not being served. She was not enjoying being punished.

There were times she was caused pain with wax, with a crop, by other means... she did enjoy this but I can honestly say that was not the reason she experienced any of it.

It did help that both of us appreciated this type of play, since abuse is not an aspect that I am interested in but the intensity of someone choosing to submit to pain, the intimacy and what it opened up in her, that was what held my interest.

Well, plus, I found it very arousing.

I had another sub who hated pain, who was scared that she couldn't tolerate it... and who found out that though she wasn't a pain slut, she would endure it for me, that was quite intense as well. She chose to be there, she chose to submit. That was very intense but in another manner... I knew she hated it but I had her go through it often anyway. Her decision to allow it, was very intense and intimate as well.

Oh well, what do I know, I'm just an asshole...

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/17/2012 4:50:47 PM   
slaverachel2Him


Posts: 147
Joined: 11/19/2011
Status: offline 		X sometimes whips Y to punish. Some times X whips Y to get out their own energy.

X whips Y because it is a reward for Y or because Y gets extremely hot and wet like nothing else can do, and is far more entertaining after a whipping than without one.




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RE: Whipping, etc. Domination of submissive? - 3/18/2012 12:30:35 AM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Quickest way out of this is to ask 'em.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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