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Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:22:01 PM   
Edwynn


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Let's take a look at the currently infamous Florida law concerning self defense regarding use of deadly force and investigate whether it applies to use of deadly force alone or might perhaps be applicable to someone who resists attack from another by means other than deadly force.

Here is one paragraph:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


To revisit the situation: The HS senior Trayvon Martin was not nor had not been engaged in an unlawful activity and was then attacked in any other place where he had a right to be and so had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground ("why are you following me?", standing ground ... "What are you doing here" (aggressive force, from a belligerent non-LEO stranger) from a stranger who had no authority but only a red sweatshirt and a menacing demeanor ... "why are you following me?" (standing ground), "what are you doing here?" (aggressive force, from a belligerent wacko)  ...

Are we missing something here?

Once the situation had deteriorated to fisticuffs and then scratching and then deadly battle ...

Why do the press all of a sudden have it that Zimmerman is the only party in the process qualified to avail himself of the "stand your ground" 'self defense' claim?


WAS THAT NOT WHAT THE TEENAGER WAS DOING TO BEGIN WITH?




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2012 6:46:40 PM >
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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:26:41 PM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Nope, your not missing anything. Zimmerman is clearly the instigator, bit off more than he could chew, got his ass handed to him, so he drew his sidearm and murdered Martin.

If anyone was standing their ground, it was Martin

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:33:38 PM   
Edwynn


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Thank you Rob, in more ways than one.

Whatever the political commentary here that might not suit either of us on every occasion, you stand up when it matters.



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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:49:41 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Tennessee is a "Stand your ground" state.

The following is an excerpt from the website of an NRA Concealed Carry instructor.

■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


ETA: You cannot use deadly force to protect property. Only yourself or a third party.
You cannot use deadly force to stop a fleeing criminal.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 3/20/2012 6:51:01 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:51:32 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		This law basically makes Florida the wild wild west.....with gun toters brandishing weapons......thinking they can approach, intimidate and boss others around, then claiming "self defense" when the douche-bag kills someone.

As the cops said.......the law basically says that if you can claim self-defense.....you can get away with terrorizing folks with your guns and shooting them when they object and the cops can`t do much.

About the only way the cops are going to go after anyone is if they are wanted criminals or robbing stores.......everyone else has a free reign to bully,push around or start trouble with their guns.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/20/2012 6:52:29 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:52:54 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Nope, your not missing anything. Zimmerman is clearly the instigator, bit off more than he could chew, got his ass handed to him, so he drew his sidearm and murdered Martin.
If anyone was standing their ground, it was Martin


Good Lord. I haven't been following the aftermath of the murder. Is this really still going on?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:56:08 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This law basically makes Florida the wild wild west.....with gun toters brandishing weapons......thinking they can approach, intimidate and boss others around, then claiming "self defense" when the douche-bag kills someone.

As the cops said.......the law basically says that if you can claim self-defense.....you can get away with terrorizing folks with your guns and shooting them when they object and the cops can`t do much.

About the only way the cops are going to go after anyone is if they are wanted criminals or robbing stores.......everyone else has a free reign to bully,push around or start trouble with their guns.


In your experience, how often has "What the cop says" and "What the law is" been different?

FL is pretty famous for that.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 6:59:44 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
Nope, your not missing anything. Zimmerman is clearly the instigator, bit off more than he could chew, got his ass handed to him, so he drew his sidearm and murdered Martin.
If anyone was standing their ground, it was Martin


Good Lord. I haven't been following the aftermath of the murder. Is this really still going on?




Yeah, the DOJ(oke) and the FBI are getting involved, there's talk of the state police investigating as well.

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:02:42 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		The joke's on them if the Paul Blart wannabe has skipped the country.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:04:48 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This law basically makes Florida the wild wild west.....with gun toters brandishing weapons......thinking they can approach, intimidate and boss others around, then claiming "self defense" when the douche-bag kills someone.

As the cops said.......the law basically says that if you can claim self-defense.....you can get away with terrorizing folks with your guns and shooting them when they object and the cops can`t do much.

About the only way the cops are going to go after anyone is if they are wanted criminals or robbing stores.......everyone else has a free reign to bully,push around or start trouble with their guns.


In your experience, how often has "What the cop says" and "What the law is" been different?

FL is pretty famous for that.



You can't be listening to that crap at face value.

The intention was to be serious here, and you were definitely among the first invited.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2012 7:06:55 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:05:41 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



Sorry about the quote. I tried twice, but it just keeps happening.

Saves me having to type it, though.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/20/2012 7:07:04 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:08:14 PM   
Edwynn


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That being the least of it.



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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:14:44 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

This law basically makes Florida the wild wild west.....with gun toters brandishing weapons......thinking they can approach, intimidate and boss others around, then claiming "self defense" when the douche-bag kills someone.

As the cops said.......the law basically says that if you can claim self-defense.....you can get away with terrorizing folks with your guns and shooting them when they object and the cops can`t do much.

About the only way the cops are going to go after anyone is if they are wanted criminals or robbing stores.......everyone else has a free reign to bully,push around or start trouble with their guns.


In your experience, how often has "What the cop says" and "What the law is" been different?

FL is pretty famous for that.



You can't be listening to that crap at face value.

The intention was to be serious here, and you were definitely among the first invited.



I was just trying to gently correct a misconception.

The police are human like anyone else. They have likes, dislikes and prejudices like the rest of the world and 95-98% of them are straight up, awesome people.

The other 2-5% is bad news and sometimes gives a lot of them a bad name.

Unfortunately, the 2-5% tends to congregate with others of their ilk which means you will have a small area where a LOT of them are idiots and the really good ones almost seem in a minority. Parts of miami were like that and Sanford MIGHT be like that.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:19:58 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

So then, dispense with the paint-by-numbers ideological crap, some of you, and let the people who have a half or more better idea than most of us how the process might should work here.

(anyone who further attempts to invoke politics of any sort here will be dismissed forthwith, we are looking for serious answers here, this is not a playground)


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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:24:30 PM   
Edwynn


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TY William and TY Rob, the two most valuable contributors to the other thread thus far.

We would hope to continue it here in a more constrained and political averse manner.

Thanks to all again.




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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:34:07 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		This and "It's a good idea to let police officers take their patrol cars home" could be the ONLY things that rob and I have ever agreed on LOL.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:38:02 PM   
Edwynn


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Subrob is a refreshing voice in that he says he would have just arrested the twit and be done with it.

Some guy from Tennessee has lots of training in 'up close and personal' situations and lends his expertise in that regard, along with personal knowledge of at least some aspects of putatively 'broad' "Stand Your Ground" laws.

But I ask the press more than anyone else; why is the aggressor Zimmerman considered to be the only one "standing ground" here



Well, OK, I might be silly and ask Florida lawmakers that same question too, but I'm trying not to get carried away here.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2012 7:41:20 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 7:56:37 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



Sorry about the quote. I tried twice, but it just keeps happening.

Saves me having to type it, though.

K.


Guy`s sitting home one night when he hears the constant scratch of a skate boarder across the way......the boarder is skating on the court......which might be against the rules or not but we`ll just say for now that is it is against the law/rules.

So instead of calling the cops......he`s all manned up with his pistol tucked in his belt....for the skater to see as he confronts the skater.....to kick him off the court.....

Only things don`t go as planned and the skater doesn`t take kindly to being bullied....by a punk with a gun....and doesn`t retreat or the guy pulls the gun and the skater believes his 8 y/o is in danger or for whatever reason they get into a tussle.....and the punk with the guns ends up shooting and killing a guy......in front of their child....in "self-defense"......now the gunny`s evening is really ruined and a family is destroyed.

Stupid fucking tragedy.....and why?......To lazy to pick up the phone but energetic enough to get your weapon and confront someone?

I don`t think the law was intended to be used this way.This isn`t self protection....it`s vigilantism and an abuse of the law.You don`t walk up to someone with a gun,shoot them and then get to claim self defense......that`s moronic......self defense means withdraw from the danger.....not walk toward it and or create it.



What`s to stop anyone from feeling a little braver.....a little bolder....with their pistol in hand?



Road-rage.....altercations and verbal assaults(backed up by a pistol butt in full sight).......wanna-be-cops w/ trigger-fingers.....tough-guys who without a gun would pee themselves......drunks and dicks w/ anger issues......


Now let everyone have a gun and let god sort them out.......

God forbid a douche-bag push me or a loved one around branishing their gun.....I might take it away.....or wait till I see the guy again with his gun and just sucker punch the fucker and break his jaw into several pieces.....I could claim self defense after all......right?






< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/20/2012 8:03:34 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 8:13:14 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		I used to carry a weapon when I worked in Overtown and Liberty city, esp at night. Never drew it. I was the palest thing for 10 blocks around but I didn't look like a victim so I never had a problem.

I have weapons at home. I have used them at home after a hurricane. No shots fired, noone hurt. They left, I didn't follow.

The problem with concealed carry is there are people who had sand kicked in their face by 'football players' when they were young and "Now, by damn, I'ma gonna get MINE".
These people are weak and buy a firearm for the same reason some wannabe thug gets a pit bull. They think it makes them a MAN. It's a shame you can't weed em out.



_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Stand your ground - 3/20/2012 8:20:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

after all......right?

If anybody wants this one, take it. I'm not going to waste my time.

K.

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