RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (Full Version)

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VanessaChaland -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 3:09:43 AM)

God creates man.
Later man returned the favor. :)

Religion often equals an overinflated ego. Man can not deal with the notion that his time here means nothing to the stars. So he created a higer power (in his image) that he could spend eternity with. :)



Musicmystery -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 6:40:33 AM)

quote:

In pure numbers "Christians" probably outnumber any other single "denomination" in the US, but they don't represent a majority.


Not true. Declining, yes, but still a majority--56% to 75%, depending on which survey.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-03-09/living/us.religion.less.christian_1_american-religious-identification-survey-christian-nation-evangelical?_s=PM:LIVING



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 8:24:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The question of "Christian privilege" arose on another thread, and it strikes me as an interesting enough topic to warrant its own discussion.

So then . . .

What is "Christian privilege"?

If it exists, what forms does it take?


It does not exist. The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

But, the statement that if you don't like it you can always leave is correct but only if you must leave in order to tolerate Christians in your town because nobody claims the U.S. is a Christian only country. However, this does not mean you must leave it if you don't believe that statement is true no does it mean you must be a Christian. No Christian thinks you must be like he or her or follow their religion or join their church. Nor must you read their/my bible nor you must not use birth control, cause if you reject our principles then it is frankly no skin of our nose. Really.

It does mean you must not dictate to the church or their hospitals or their homeless shelter organizations what insurance benefit they must provide.



PatrickG38 -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 8:28:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The question of "Christian privilege" arose on another thread, and it strikes me as an interesting enough topic to warrant its own discussion.

So then . . .

What is "Christian privilege"?

If it exists, what forms does it take?


It does not exist. The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

Do tell what you mean? novus ordo seclorum? E pluribus unum?



PatrickG38 -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 8:30:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Generally, this privilege is actually the source of the false sense of oppression that many Christians feel. In a democracy there must to some extent be a certain privilege to majoritarian traditions (Christmas is a Federal holiday, but Yom Kippur is not) and in the United States a vague Christianity is properly normative. Nevertheless, a human rights based democracy must equally insist this privilege is limited to unimportant matters (no group can have any special claim to the law, the political process, and economic opportunity and so on). An intelligence and respectful majority also recognizes it is the recipient of some privilege and acts in a magnanimous fashion allowing non-majoritarian groups certain rights not seemly if applied to the majoritarian group (this is why the NAACP is legitimate, but a white rights group is not). Obviously, this is a complicated question.

I want to completely associate myself with Patrick`s comments.I couldn`t have said it better.

You to Mr. Poobah.Well put.


Thank you.



Moonhead -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 8:31:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?



kalikshama -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:10:12 AM)

I think of this: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-27-2011/gop---special-victims-unit



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:20:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?


More to the point, the motto 'In God We Trust" was authorized by Congress to appear on United States Coinage way back in 1865 and had been on our money since then in various denominations and coins since that period. This suggests the country has trusted in God for a very long time.

Nice try.




PatrickG38 -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:25:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?


More to the point, the motto 'In God We Trust" was authorized by Congress to appear on United States Coinage way back in 1865 and had been on our money since then in various denominations and coins since that period. This suggests the country has trusted in God for a very long time.

Nice try.




Just so you are aware the Country was founded in 1776, not 1865. It was only made the official motto recently to contrast with atheistic communism during the cold war. Moreover it is a relateively meaningless motto. We spend enough on arms to show we don't entirely trust god to watch over us. If you want a serious discussion of religion and our founding, I will be happy to oblige. It is unsurprisingly a mixed bag, but with a clear secular mission.



MrBukani -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:32:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?


More to the point, the motto 'In God We Trust" was authorized by Congress to appear on United States Coinage way back in 1865 and had been on our money since then in various denominations and coins since that period. This suggests the country has trusted in God for a very long time.

Nice try.



Maybe God stands for capitalists.[:D]
You can take that to the bank.
Maybe God is a banker.
Why trust in something you cannot prove that it exists?
Its like an adult handing out candy saying TRUST ME.
BELIEVE ME.
WHY would I?
Everything that has to do with God incorporated with the state, reeks of a state that has not seperated church from state at all.
Shamrocks and shananigans.
Period.
The atheist is workin every day so dollarbills can be printed with one sided favoritism.
So the non believers in christ work for christian propaganda.
Wonder what you would have to say about it when it would say.
In God we dont trust.
Would you feel the same way about it then.



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:34:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

The question of "Christian privilege" arose on another thread, and it strikes me as an interesting enough topic to warrant its own discussion.

So then . . .

What is "Christian privilege"?

If it exists, what forms does it take?


It does not exist. The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

Do tell what you mean? novus ordo seclorum? E pluribus unum?






See my earlier post on the earliest date the motto "In God We Trust" appeared on coinage. My dollar bill says "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the back, the green side, CENTER.


Now, let's turn to the founding document of this Republic, the Declaration of Independence. In this document are various references to God as He in whom the new Republic derives its authority and right of existance. God. Below are two of them. So, I suppose if you don't like it you can leave or live with it cause you cannot change it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in general Congress assembled,
appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:47:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?


More to the point, the motto 'In God We Trust" was authorized by Congress to appear on United States Coinage way back in 1865 and had been on our money since then in various denominations and coins since that period. This suggests the country has trusted in God for a very long time.

Nice try.



Maybe God stands for capitalists.[:D]
You can take that to the bank.
Maybe God is a banker.
Why trust in something you cannot prove that it exists?
Its like an adult handing out candy saying TRUST ME.
BELIEVE ME.
WHY would I?
Everything that has to do with God incorporated with the state, reeks of a state that has not seperated church from state at all.
Shamrocks and shananigans.
Period.
The atheist is workin every day so dollarbills can be printed with one sided favoritism.
So the non believers in christ work for christian propaganda.
Wonder what you would have to say about it when it would say.
In God we dont trust.
Would you feel the same way about it then.



While founding this county on Christian principles the founding fathers also wanted religious or non-religious freedoms protected. They did well, so well that while we as a nation were founded with a trust in God and continue to do so they did not require it to live here or be happy here or serve in government positions or buy a house or work or bank or whatever. At the same time they, the founding fathers, never intended or would tolerate using this Government, founded on a trust in God, to dictate to our churches or yours for the very same reason the founding fathers never let the Government control or punish those who did not trust in God.

This is all a good thing for both of us, Christian and non-Christian. Be happy. Rejoice. You don't sound very happy, could it be you fight that trust we all must have in order to be happy?



tweakabelle -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:50:50 AM)

quote:

Arturas
It does mean you must not dictate to the church or their hospitals or their homeless shelter organizations what insurance benefit they must provide.


How can one reconcile the claim that Christian privilege "doesn't exist" with the above demand?

To insist that Christian institutions must be beyond social or legal oversight, is to make a clear unambiguous claim for a privileged status. It is a direct demand that Christian institutions be given a privileged status not extended to other institutions or organisations operating in the same area., a status no secular organisation would ever dream of applying for or claiming.

I fail to see how this demand can be reconciled with the claim that Christian privilege doesn't exist.



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:53:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
The statement "this country was founded on Christian principles" is correct. Just read your dollar bill.

You're aware that those used to say "E Pluribus Unum" not "In God We Trust" until 1957?


More to the point, the motto 'In God We Trust" was authorized by Congress to appear on United States Coinage way back in 1865 and had been on our money since then in various denominations and coins since that period. This suggests the country has trusted in God for a very long time.

Nice try.




Just so you are aware the Country was founded in 1776, not 1865. It was only made the official motto recently to contrast with atheistic communism during the cold war. Moreover it is a relateively meaningless motto. We spend enough on arms to show we don't entirely trust god to watch over us. If you want a serious discussion of religion and our founding, I will be happy to oblige. It is unsurprisingly a mixed bag, but with a clear secular mission.


It's not that complicated that it need such a debate. The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty. See my post on this or the actual full text if you please.

Debate over.



tweakabelle -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 9:55:07 AM)

NM



MrBukani -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 10:00:35 AM)

religion is a personal thing, I do not belong to the we you are talkin about.
As a lot of people dont belong to the 'in God we trust.'
I dont see a reason why any country should put those kinda comments on money or in the constitution.
Will you have less equality if its not on money?
I think you will have more.
But its not really that I care about such silly things.
It only shows there does not exist true equality to begin with.
Just like capitalism is a system invented for people with capital, not for the poor.
And in this case the christians hold the capital on moral and indoctrinate the rest with those itty bitty lines printed on money each day.
Again how would you feel if it was the other way round.
Any state in my opinion should get out of the god business, since they can never prove God really ment it the way they say God means it.
Thats just common sense to me. Any favoritism reeks of dicrimination. Like you are not as good as me because I trust in something that makes me happy.



xssve -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 10:03:33 AM)

quote:

See my earlier post on the earliest date the motto "In God We Trust" appeared on coinage. My dollar bill says "IN GOD WE TRUST" on the back, the green side, CENTER.


Now, let's turn to the founding document of this Republic, the Declaration of Independence. In this document are various references to God as He in whom the new Republic derives its authority and right of existance. God. Below are two of them. So, I suppose if you don't like it you can leave or live with it cause you cannot change it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in general Congress assembled,
appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions,


The DOI is not a legal document, it's slapping a glove across King Georges face - when you're taking on the greatest military power in the world, every little bit helps - in propaganda terms, this is called "an appeal to authority".

I'm sure it's a source of great distress to you, but the Constitution, which is a legal document, grants no authority to religion, any religion, what it does do is explicitly proscribe congress from either fucking with or establishing it.

Not allowing establishment is not the same thing as "fucking with", however much wailing and gnashing of teeth is involved.



Moonhead -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 10:04:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
It's not that complicated that it need such a debate.

Apparently it is if you're capable of stating nonsense like this:
quote:

The Declaration of Independence dates to 1776 and is clearly derived from a faith and obedience to the Almighty.

With a straight face.

The declaration of independence was signed because the American colonies did not want to be ruled by George II, who (unlike your founding fathers) claimed to rule through a mandate from God.
If your country was founded on the notion of subservience to the almighty, you'd still be paying tea tax.



Arturas -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 10:05:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Arturas
It does mean you must not dictate to the church or their hospitals or their homeless shelter organizations what insurance benefit they must provide.


How can one reconcile the claim that Christian privilege "doesn't exist" with the above demand?

To insist that Christian institutions must be beyond social or legal oversight, is to make a clear unambiguous claim for a privileged status. It is a direct demand that Christian institutions be given a privileged status not extended to other institutions or organisations operating in the same area., a status no secular organisation would ever dream of applying for or claiming.

I fail to see how this demand can be reconciled with the claim that Christian privilege doesn't exist.


It's not that complicated either. No church may be forced to do something contrary to their beliefs and not just the Christian Church. That simple fact negates any position there is a "Christian Priviledge" which is the OP.

"Religion" is priviledged in being given protection to prevent it's control by the State. Specifically. For good reason. The founding fathers did not wish the State to be controlled by religion nor should religion be controlled by the state, any religion. To take this furthur, we are not just talking about Christian Churches only. There is no special priviledge given the Christian Church over any other church.

I see no argument contrary to my position supported by a point of fact or justified by actual events or happenstance.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Christian Privilege: What Is It? Does It Exist? (3/23/2012 10:07:29 AM)

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires ..."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights ..."

Those are the only two specifics I can remember in the declaration.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



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