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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/27/2012 7:05:21 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Uh, it has nothing to do with when the fetus becomes human, per se, which by lengthy tradition, has always been held to be at "quickening", or basically, when the baby begins to move in the womb.


Which for each woman, with each pregnancy, can be different times. Also the number of pregnancies makes that movement different as well.

In pregnancy terms, the moment of quickening refers to the initial motion of the fetus in the uterus as it is perceived or felt by the pregnant woman. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, to "quicken" means "to reach the stage of pregnancy at which the child shows signs of life."[1] In the twentieth century, ultrasound technology made it possible to see that a fetus is in motion even if the pregnant woman does not yet feel it. This technological development made the concept of "quickening" more complex.

Personally, I would prefer to make it the age of viability without risk of complications due to premature birth... but that definition, again, is hard to pin down to an exact date. And, remember, a woman can simply walk out of the hospital and leave the child to the state.. Safe Haven Laws.


I think we have to push back in the other direction.

The Anti-Family-Planners don't like unfettered access to family planning services?

FINE. We need to PUSH FOR UNFETTERED ACCESS TO FAMILY PLANNING SERVICES.

Period. The solution to pointless intrusion into the doctor/patient relationship is no regulation other than that for every other medical procedure. You know, Informed Consent, and the whole Megillah.

I'm PRO-FAMILY-PLANNING. Period. It's between you and your doctor.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/27/2012 7:06:41 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Life begins outside of mans grasp.


The sperm is alive.

The egg is alive.

LIFE DOESN'T BEGIN.

Life is a continuum.

Stop lying.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/27/2012 7:44:58 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

As one who is ENTIRELY against abortions, I can only say, the laws need to be respectful, but they also need to include men's rights.


Until a man's body has to go through the changes a woman's does during pregnancy, he has no rights.


I can't count how many times a man wanted to keep the child, only to be barricaded by law because....."it's the woman's body".


All this says is that you know a lot of guys who can't care less about birth control and preventing pregnancy, therefore proving the theory that men can't think past their dick.

quote:


Is that child not the mans equally? As well?

Hell yeah it is.


Once it is breathing air outside the woman's body, sure.



quote:


Yeah, she has to carry it....for 9 months, and he has to carry it for 25+ years.

Who's got the better deal here?

I'd say, the girl because she gets a nice ride.....and he gets to live in his Mom's basement.


A nice ride?  Are you referring to the jerk who got her pregnant?  Because that is purely subjective.

So what about when the pregnancy becomes high risk?  When the woman has to take a leave from her job because she gets put on bed rest?  Wait, I'm sure you think that is so great, just laying around all day.

How about when she develops gestational diabetes, endangering her life and the life of the baby?

What about if her uterus bursts (as happened to my mother) and she is then no longer able to have any more children and has a nasty scar from the emergency hysterectomy?  Are we going to cut up the man so he grasps the concept of how she feels?

You have said some pretty stupid things on here, but this is without a doubt the most stupid thing, confirming that you really haven't got a clue about much.



Either way, whichever side you're on....it's life.

The SECOND that sperm hits the egg.

It's life.

Period.





(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 1:19:08 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


As one who is ENTIRELY against abortions, I can only say, the laws need to be respectful, but they also need to include men's rights.
I can't count how many times a man wanted to keep the child, only to be barricaded by law because....."it's the woman's body".
FUCK THAT!!!!! You know who actually cares about that issue?
Lawyers, newspapers and arrogant mentally diseased people.
Is that child not the mans equally? As well?
Hell yeah it is.
Yeah, she has to carry it....well.....I'm guessing (it's a gut feel) she knew that once he stuck his dick in her....she had a fairly cognizant grasp of the realities of the potential outcome. I'm presuming the woman has an adequate brain....capable of seeing beyond Friday night, a hot guy, her pussy's needs and.....whatever else comes up.
You want to blame men because they only think with their dick?
How about we consider both parties (I'm fairly confident I recall something about women being equal in all aspects to men, ergo....their ability to think beyond tomorrow).
In the end....the child belongs to two people. Not just the woman.

It's about time we considered men's rights.



The man makes his reproductive choice BEFORE his "sticks his dick in her". Don't want a kid? Wrap that rascal. Don't want to pay child support ever? Get a vasectomy.

My comment is a little more flip than it needs to be, really. Hopefully the two adults are fucking someone that they can have a reasonable discussion with, if the situation comes up.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 4:05:35 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: playfulotter

I am so glad I don't live in Arizona...This is so wrong on so many different levels...


What he said



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(in reply to playfulotter)
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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 5:36:57 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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Arizona is at a competitive disadvantage. What Major Corporate employee would transfer from say, San Francisco to Phoenix?

None. Not when Arizona is a fucking joke.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/28/2012 5:37:31 AM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 11:00:02 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Arizona is at a competitive disadvantage. What Major Corporate employee would transfer from say, San Francisco to Phoenix?

None. Not when Arizona is a fucking joke.


Well, there are some nice things about Arizona. It's not all bad.

Here is our governor:




A few members of the legislature. Aren't they cute?



A couple of lobbyists, feeding from the state trough:












(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 11:28:59 AM   
LaTigresse


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If only the humans making the decisions were as awesome as the wildlife.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Zonie63)
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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 11:52:46 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
I guess there has to be a downside to the beautiful nature
some of its citizens more than balance it the other way


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<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 11:53:44 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
If only the humans making the decisions were as awesome as the wildlife.

Or half as smart.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 3/28/2012 11:54:09 AM >


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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/28/2012 7:34:44 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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<fr>

Dear old Wiki has some interesting stuff on quickening and its role in determining legal personhood.

quote:

The word "quick" originally meant "alive". Historically, quickening has sometimes been considered to be the beginning of the possession of "individual life" by the fetus. British legal scholar William Blackstone explained the subject of quickening in the eighteenth century, relative to feticide and abortion:

Life… begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb. For if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb; or if any one beat her, whereby the child dieth in her body, and she is delivered of a dead child; this, though not murder, was by the ancient law homicide or manslaughter. But at present it is not looked upon in quite so atrocious a light, though it remains a very heinous misdemeanor.[5]

Nevertheless, quickening was only one of several standards that were used historically to determine when the right to life attaches to a fetus. According to the "ancient law" mentioned by Blackstone, another standard was formation of the fetus, which occurs weeks before quickening. Henry de Bracton explained the ancient law, about five hundred years before Blackstone:

If one strikes a pregnant woman or gives her poison in order to procure an abortion, if the fetus is already formed or quickened, especially if it is quickened, he commits homicide.[6]

The rule that a fetus was considered alive upon formation dates back at least another millennium[dubious – discuss] before Bracton. For example, in the Septuagint text of the Old Testament, killing the fetus was considered to be taking a life, "if it be perfectly formed".[7][8][9] However, this is probably a mis-translation, as the Hebrew text translates literally to "her children come out but there is no disaster" with no mention of physical formation, and other translations of exactly the same verses maintain that killing the fetus was considered to be taking a life without regard to its physical formation.[10] Thus, quickening perceived by a woman has been only one of the standards used to mark when a human life legally begins. Others include Viability, birth, and conception.

In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries a woman convicted of a capital crime could claim a delay in her execution if she were pregnant; a woman who did so was said to "plead the belly". In Ireland on 16 March 1831 Baron Pennefather in Limerick stated that pregnancy was not alone sufficient for a delay but there had to be quickening. See Limerick Evening Post and Clare Sentinel 18 March 1831.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickening


If I recall correctly, the old version of the Nicene Creed talked about Christ's coming to judge the "quick and the dead."




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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/29/2012 7:34:57 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas



Have you ever watched Jerry Springer? One would like to think all women and men know what they are getting into when they make life changing decisions but life and the Jerry Springer show has convinced me lots of us think we know what we are getting into but alas, "Jerry, "Jerry", "Jerry"...


Are you saying that you not only watch Jerry but make posts and policy decisions based on what you see there?

It's worse than I thought.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/29/2012 8:45:33 AM   
Moonhead


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It could be worse: at least you don't get Jeremy Kyle on the telly over there...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Arizona Con Wants To Force Women To Witness An Abor... - 3/29/2012 8:49:03 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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Well. We will have to consider the source of your information when reading your posts in the future, Arturas. Garbage in, garbage out.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas



Have you ever watched Jerry Springer? One would like to think all women and men know what they are getting into when they make life changing decisions but life and the Jerry Springer show has convinced me lots of us think we know what we are getting into but alas, "Jerry, "Jerry", "Jerry"...


Are you saying that you not only watch Jerry but make posts and policy decisions based on what you see there?

It's worse than I thought.



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 134
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