RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money

RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (Full Version)

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tj444 -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:01:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 and Zimmerman can say Martin attacked him, doesnt mean Martin did.. Zimmerman has a history of violence and attacking people, he attacked a cop and has domestic violence on his record.. First off, that's for the prosecution to disprove. Second, since *the increasing amount of details from eye* witnesses** (as opposed to an ear witness over the phone), back up Zimmerman's claim, it seem that the girlfriend (who wasn't there) doesn't know shit. lol Eye witnesses are very unreliable.. not to mention that some claiming to be witnesses after the event could be lying and not seen anything or been anywhere near there.. Martins girlfriend is the best witness as to how it started, any other witnesses may have seen the ending and some arent very credible, one says it was too dark to see what was going on, another says they could see the color of their clothes.. and one says the cops tried to get her to change her version of events which she says Martin was the one yelling for help, not Zimmerman.. "Memory is affected by retelling, and we rarely tell a story in a neutral fashion. By tailoring our stories to our listeners, our bias distorts the very formation of memory—even without the introduction of misinformation by a third party. Bias creeps into memory without our knowledge, without our awareness. While confidence and accuracy are generally correlated, when misleading information is given, witness confidence is often higher for the incorrect information than for the correct information. This leads many to question the competence of the average person to determine credibility issues." http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm

joether -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:10:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 and Zimmerman can say Martin attacked him, doesnt mean Martin did.. Zimmerman has a history of violence and attacking people, he attacked a cop and has domestic violence on his record.. First off, that's for the prosecution to disprove. Second, since the increasing amount of details from eye witnesses (as opposed to an ear witness over the phone), back up Zimmerman's claim, it seem that the girlfriend (who wasn't there) doesn't know shit. Who are the witnesses exactly? What are their names and what EXACTLY did they report? Its easy to say 'the witnesses say and heard 'blah'' stuff. However, when a person's name is given and tied to what they report as witnessing it gives some credibility. Mr. Martin's girlfriend has been named as one such witness to some of the events of that night. Now if your going to call her a liar, its up to you to present the burden of evidence. So until the witnesses step up, identify themselves and what exactly they reported, its easy to just 'make shit up' to help argue your point. There is only one witness that understood the vast majority of events that night. The question is, is that witness telling 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'? Or, telling a story that places the witness in the best possible light (i.e. he's not 100% truthful)? Mr. Zimmerman does not have a stellar profile on credibility. Mr. Martin's credibility is irrelevant because he is quite dead and unable to get 'his side of the story'. If the worst thing Mr. Martin did was smoke some pot, that's NOTHING compared to assaulting a police office as Mr. Zimmerman has in his past. Fortunately we are not living in 1912 but 2012. Criminal science has advanced by quite a bit in a hundred years. I'm sure the investigators are looking into all the information, judging what is credibile and what is not. Plus, using physics and chemistry to understand where both Mr. Martin and Mr. Zimmerman where when Mr. Martin was shot to death. Which means, the actual evidence may point out that Mr. Zimmerman's story is mostly true or that its full of holes. What doesnt help Mr. Zimmerman's case is that the local police have given him a free pass without even a 'one over' inspection of the crime scene. As such their credibility has been diminished.

DarqueMirror -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:16:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 lol Eye witnesses are very unreliable.. "lol" And an ear witness isn't unreliable? That's funny quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 not to mention that some claiming to be witnesses after the event could be lying and not seen anything or been anywhere near there.. So could Martin's girlfriend. quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Martins girlfriend is the best witness as to how it started, Not even close. quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 any other witnesses may have seen the ending and some arent very credible, one says it was too dark to see what was going on, another says they could see the color of their clothes.. and one says the cops tried to get her to change her version of events which she says Martin was the one yelling for help, not Zimmerman.. You haven't been following the story very well then. More have come out. The ones you mentioned are the original witnesses. quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 "Memory is affected by retelling, and we rarely tell a story in a neutral fashion. By tailoring our stories to our listeners, our bias distorts the very formation of memory—even without the introduction of misinformation by a third party. Bias creeps into memory without our knowledge, without our awareness. While confidence and accuracy are generally correlated, when misleading information is given, witness confidence is often higher for the incorrect information than for the correct information. This leads many to question the competence of the average person to determine credibility issues." http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm That applies to Martin's girlfriend as well, perhaps more do due to her personal relationship with Martin. Of course she's going to side with him.

DarqueMirror -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:24:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Who are the witnesses exactly? What are their names and what EXACTLY did they report? If you can't follow the story on your own, don't expect me to feed it to you. I can't remember the last time I came home from work and this story wasn't top news on the national news shows. Take a look for yourself. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Mr. Martin's girlfriend has been named as one such witness to some of the events of that night. Now if your going to call her a liar, its up to you to present the burden of evidence. No it isn't. The defense will shred her credibility just fine without my help. I don't need to prove she's lying. All I have to do is state the obvious: she wasn't there and can't be certain what she heard other than maybe the initial conversation. quote: ORIGINAL: joether So until the witnesses step up, identify themselves and what exactly they reported, Which they already have. Not their fault or mine that you can't keep up with the story as it develops. quote: ORIGINAL: joether If the worst thing Mr. Martin did was smoke some pot, that's NOTHING compared to assaulting a police office as Mr. Zimmerman has in his past. How nice of you to conveniently gloss over his carrying of a screw driver and a shitload of women's jewelry at school. In most schools today, the screwdriver would count as a weapon and get him expelled.

leonine -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:43:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror In most schools today, the screwdriver would count as a weapon and get him expelled. I used to carry a screwdriver AND a nail clipper AND a Swiss Army knife at school, guess I'd have been not just expelled but locked up. No, wait, I'm white, that makes it OK.

joether -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:45:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 He chased the kid when he was told not to, Nope, try again. He was never told not to. He was told it wasn't necessary. Big difference. "We dont need you to follow him..." Unless your a total moron, that implies you shouldnt STILL be following the 'person of interest'. If Mr. Zimmerman is really THAT stupid that he can not understand a basic instruction, why in God's name should we allow him to have a firearm? As such a tool is vasty more complex in operation than 'we dont need you to follow the person your chasing". quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 he caught up to and confronted the kid... Someone didn't read the OP... I have a hard time believing Mr. Martin was walking toward Mr. Zimmerman the whole time. The evidence so far places Mr. Martin moving away from Mr. Zimmerman's initial position. Which means that for Mr. Zimmerman to remain in line of sight of Mr. Martin, he would need to be pursuing/chasing/tailing Mr. Martin. Mr. Zimmerman stated he was following in his car before stepping out to pursue on foot. We know this from the phone call! Given all the time Mr. Zimmerman was on the phone with the police for Mr. Martin to be walking towards him, would have had to place Mr. Martin at about a mile from Mr. Zimmerman's house! Your going to tell me, that Mr. Zimmerman perfectly identified a person's facial expression from about a mile away.....at night? Yeah Right... Its more logical, based on evidence that Mr. Zimmerman had to pursue Mr. Martin. Even on foot, Mr. Martin's stride would have been a bit more than Mr. Zimmerman (Mr. Martin was taller than Mr. Zimmerman). That would imply that after thirty sections, Mr. Martin is further down the road and out pacing Mr. Zimmerman. Mr. Zimmerman had to run to catch up to Mr. Zimmerman. Otherwise, how both of them been in a fight fight if they had many yards between them? Mr. Zimmerman has never stated he yelled to Mr. Martin to stop and come to him or else. Without brandishing a firearm, what motivation would Mr. Martin have to close the distance with Mr. Zimmerman whom looked ever bit a thug himself? Just brandishing a concealable firearm in Florida is punishable by up to three years in jail. So if Mr. Zimmerman took out his gun for ANY reason, he would have to use it, or risk going to jail. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Zimmerman has his account but Martins girlfriends account differs, Wow...the account of a girlfriend....who wasn't even there....differs? Say it ain't so. An where was the location of all the other witnesses exactly? Their line of sight? Their ability to make out details both visually and auditory? If your going to say what the girlfriend stated is false, your the one who needs to come up with te burden of evidence. Plus you hold a very bias view in all this, so your agenda is to try to cut down the girlfriend's crediblity in any manner you can. Your not arguing for Mr. Zimmerman to be handled fairly, your inthis for the hell of the arguement. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Did Zimmerman have his gun out when he confronted Martin? Nope. Prove it. As I stated above, if Mr. Zimmerman brandish his concealable firearm for ANY REASON, is punishable by up to three years in jail. Taking it out, while at a bar to show off to friends when a police officer is around is enough to get you in trouble. So if he took the gun out, but did not kill Mr. Martin, than he would have to contend with Mr. Martin's side of the story. Could Mr. Zimmerman leave THAT to chance of Mr. Martin's story showing Mr. Zimmerman not as a watchful neighborhood watch captian, but some deranged lunatic with a firearm trying to make himself out as some sort of local hero? I was told in a number of self defense course, that if your in effective melee range with someone holding a gun towards you, and you feel your life is in jeapordy, you might as well try a pre-emptive strike. Of course, that assumes there was a fistfight to begin with as Mr. Zimmerman states to have happened. But we have found that Mr. Zimmerman's chain of events is questionable material at best. Who is to say he didnt make up the fist fight? Or that the police help him to create a story? Their crediblity in this whole issue is also lacking.

DarqueMirror -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 1:53:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leonine I used to carry a screwdriver AND a nail clipper AND a Swiss Army knife at school, guess I'd have been not just expelled but locked up. No, wait, I'm white, that makes it OK. Since you were in school over 40 years ago, it's not surprising you could have those things. You could probably carry more thn 3 oz. of liquid on planes too. Things change.

DarqueMirror -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 2:02:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether "We dont need you to follow him..." Unless your a total moron, that implies you shouldnt STILL be following the 'person of interest'. If Mr. Zimmerman is really THAT stupid that he can not understand a basic instruction, why in God's name should we allow him to have a firearm? As such a tool is vasty more complex in operation than 'we dont need you to follow the person your chasing". Implication is open to interpretation. Calling it an instruction doesn't change that. Allow me to repeat, yet again, the POLICE have said he was under NO legal obligation to heed the dispatcher's words. quote: ORIGINAL: joether I have a hard time believing Mr. Martin was walking toward Mr. Zimmerman the whole time. You don't have to believe it. The prosecution does, however, have to prove it wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: joether The evidence so far places Mr. Martin moving away from Mr. Zimmerman's initial position. Which means that for Mr. Zimmerman to remain in line of sight of Mr. Martin, he would need to be pursuing/chasing/tailing Mr. Martin. Mr. Zimmerman stated he was following in his car before stepping out to pursue on foot. We know this from the phone call! Given all the time Mr. Zimmerman was on the phone with the police for Mr. Martin to be walking towards him, would have had to place Mr. Martin at about a mile from Mr. Zimmerman's house! Your going to tell me, that Mr. Zimmerman perfectly identified a person's facial expression from about a mile away.....at night? Yeah Right...Its more logical, based on evidence that Mr. Zimmerman had to pursue Mr. Martin. Even on foot, Mr. Martin's stride would have been a bit more than Mr. Zimmerman (Mr. Martin was taller than Mr. Zimmerman). That would imply that after thirty sections, Mr. Martin is further down the road and out pacing Mr. Zimmerman. Mr. Zimmerman had to run to catch up to Mr. Zimmerman. Otherwise, how both of them been in a fight fight if they had many yards between them? Mr. Zimmerman has never stated he yelled to Mr. Martin to stop and come to him or else. Without brandishing a firearm, what motivation would Mr. Martin have to close the distance with Mr. Zimmerman whom looked ever bit a thug himself? Just brandishing a concealable firearm in Florida is punishable by up to three years in jail. So if Mr. Zimmerman took out his gun for ANY reason, he would have to use it, or risk going to jail. An where was the location of all the other witnesses exactly? Their line of sight? Their ability to make out details both visually and auditory? If your going to say what the girlfriend stated is false, your the one who needs to come up with te burden of evidence. Plus you hold a very bias view in all this, so your agenda is to try to cut down the girlfriend's crediblity in any manner you can. Your not arguing for Mr. Zimmerman to be handled fairly, your inthis for the hell of the arguement. Again, keep up with the story as it develops, then try again. Don't base your arguments on information that's a month old. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Prove it. Don't need to. Innocent until proven guilty. You try proving he did have it out. Can't? Oh well.

Moonhead -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 4:44:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror FR- I just love how, despite the increasing detail that comes out, and the evidence of this punk being not quite the angel he's being portrayed as, people still claim he was hunted down and shot. Presumably the coroner who dug a bullet out of the scary hoodied gangbanger's skull is making false claims as well, then? Maybe the psycho beat the shit out of Zimmerman and nicked his gun in order to shoot himself...

Blackj4u -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 6:07:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Of course you're going to hear about every little detail of what Trayvon Martin did "wrong". That's what comes from a month of his parents, the press, The race baitor and Fat Albert painting him as an angel. Any time you put anyone on a pedastal, they're bound to fall off. It's called: "Being human". You had to know that this kid was a teen-ager and, as such, had probably had some kind of experimentation with weed or whatever but ... The "discovery" of the jewelry and the screw driver adds an interesting wrinkle. It would seem our friend Trayvon is no stranger to skulking through back yards and looking through windows. I wish I could do a decent "Arte Johnson" voice. Then, we find out that the jewelry was discovered because he was *seen* (that's pronounced: "caught" for those of you in Poughkeepsie), vandalizing school property. It would appear, from this article, that at least the school security guard was happy with doing a little CYOA and making sure that he had an answer for the spray paint but, didn't particularly care about the suspicious jewelry, given to Trayvon by an accom ... errrr ... friend. The jewelry should have been turned over to the police, when it happened. It wasn't. I smell a conspiracy to keep young Trayvon out of the legal system. Peace and comfort, Michael Got any evidence to back up your lil fantasy?

Owner59 -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 7:43:44 AM)
Next......the frightened-of-everything cons will be saying the kid had WMDs and not skittles.[8\|] The fox headline would read....."Did the young man have links to al-queda......people want to know".......

Hillwilliam -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 7:52:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Did Zimmerman have his gun out when he confronted Martin? Nope. How do you know? You weren't there. One of the claims Ive seen is that Zimmerman said Martin tried to take his weapon. How can he try to take something if he doesn't know it's there? How would he know it's there to try to take unless it was in view?

RacerJim -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:07:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So, because the young man wasn't perfect it was legal to hunt and kill him? So, because the facts/truth belie the young man's "perfect kid" image it's not okay to make them public? BTW: As pointed out in the OP, evidence and witnesses belie your opinion that the young man was hunted down and killed.

Owner59 -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:09:09 AM)
No one said the kid was perfect.....what kid is? We`re just pointing out that he`s the dead one.

subrob1967 -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:17:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Did Zimmerman have his gun out when he confronted Martin? Nope. How do you know? You weren't there. One of the claims Ive seen is that Zimmerman said Martin tried to take his weapon. How can he try to take something if he doesn't know it's there? How would he know it's there to try to take unless it was in view? Zimmerman's shirt might have come up and exposed it in the ass whupping. That's one way...

RacerJim -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:20:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If someone was chasing me down.....sorry.....getting punched at is going to be a risk...... [/quote. If a 6' 2" 200lb high school football player chased me down, punched me in my nose hard enough to knock me down, then repeatedly banged my head on the pavement/sidewalk.....sorry.....getting hurt worse in return is going to be a risk.....

RacerJim -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:21:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Now we`re hearing about the kid getting suspended for pot,basically attacking the kids character.......I guess the OP missed "and the ugly" So, disclosing the facts/truth about someone is attacking their character?

Owner59 -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:26:17 AM)
I`m not getting something. How is it that if I`m attacking someone and the tables turn on me, do I get to claim self defense? At what point does the clock reset and my original attack become irrelevant....a non event ? This reasoning is as fucked as this SYG law is. I`m the attacker. Does a mugger or rapist get to claim self-defense when shit doesn`t go as planned and they get THIER asses kicked? Ummmmmm......NO. Folks avoiding this question and answer are for the most part cowards....intellectually and probably every other way as well. Can we have someone square this for us and explain it? The silence is deafening.

Hillwilliam -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:38:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 If someone was chasing me down.....sorry.....getting punched at is going to be a risk...... If a 6' 2" 200lb high school football player chased me down, punched me in my nose hard enough to knock me down, then repeatedly banged my head on the pavement/sidewalk.....sorry.....getting hurt worse in return is going to be a risk..... Um Jim, 1. He was not 200#, he was 140. 2. He wasn't a HS football player. He was in the Optimist League. That's a larger version of Pop Warner. http://www.sfyfl.org/teams.php?pel_tsname=MIR&pel_tname=Miramar+Wolverines&pel_seasonstr=2011&sid=sesession

RacerJim -> RE: The Good, the Bad, and the Money (3/27/2012 8:40:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I`m not getting something. How is it that if I`m attacking someone and the tables turn on me, do I get to claim self defense? At what point does the clock reset and my original attack become irrelevant....a non event ? This reasoning is as fucked as this SYG law is. I`m the attacker. Does a mugger or rapist get to claim self-defense when shit doesn`t go as planned and they get THIER asses kicked? Ummmmmm......NO. Folks avoiding this question and answer are for the most part cowards....intellectually and probably every other way as well. Can we have someone square this for us and explain it? The silence is deafening. Maybe the reason you're not getting what you're not getting is that no one, NO ONE, has yet stated that Zimmerman attacked Martin but, rather, exactly the opposite...i.e., that Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose hard enough to knock him down then got on top of him and was banging his head on the sidewalk. Was Zimmerman supposed to just lay there and let Martin bang his head on the sidewalk until... Ummmmmmmmm....NO!

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