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xssve -> RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian (4/13/2012 5:05:48 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:
The is not any huge body of historical evidence of the persecution of gays for being gay until probably the Eighteenth century, and mostly in the Nineteenth, Oscar Wilde, the big Masturbation scare, etc.
So you're admitting this is incorrect, then?
Also, trying to argue that there were no religions persecuting gays in the middle ages besides the catholics is nonsense: the Greek orthodox church used to take a line on homosexuals that makes the shi'ite theocracy in Iran look progressive and tolerant...
Can you show that it was in anyway disproportionate to any other group being persecuted?
I never said there were no other religions persecuting homosexuals, if any pogroms at all are occurring, homosexuals are usually lumped into the mix just because.
When pogroms are not occurring, there are no pogroms exclusively targeting homosexuals - there were even the equivalent of civil unions in some places.
The point being not that homosexuals were not persecuted, merely that they were not persecuted exclusively, or in greater proportion or intensity than any of the other myriad groups being persecuted, and even then, it was lumped in with whatever they were persecuting the others for, whether it was heresy or "undermining public institutions", etc., i.e., I'm not sure how many homosexuals were prosecuted in Early America but women were definitely thrown in jail for having children out of wedlock.
i.e., I just don't see them being singled out, if they had been being singled out all this time, I doubt there would have been so many "out", e.g., Oscar Wilde himself - if he were in constant fear for his life I would think he would have been more discreet.
And historically, I still think pederasty is the thing that most upsets people, Wilde was called out by Queensbury for seducing his son into a life of vice (the other way around, actually), and in my own observation, wherever there is a gay community, there are "twinks", it's just one of those things, i.e., most gay men I've heard talk abotu it say they knew they were gay early on, whiel in the hristian mythos, gays are made, not born.
And it's the Nambla connection that bugs people, trust me on that one, it's a subject that arouses violent passions in Americans, even they're talking about a marginally underage post pubescent, it's "child molestation" and they want you put down, now.
I'm really looking at the obsession with homosexuality in particular, even the reconstructionists are not for pogroms against the Jews this time, or any other dogmatic deviations, but they're definitely for a pogrom against homosexuals (google up "Joels army" a group of them stomped a gay man to death in Austria I believe), and they have targeted that group exclusively, in fact they seem to have largely replaced Jews as the "repository of evil" that requires excising in the Protestant/evangelical Christian mythos, and I'm convinced that the pederasty connection is one of the deeper driving forces - They've already lost their daughters and wives to "liberalism", now we want to turn their son's into fags, there is no way it isn't going to arouse violent passions, it's the last fucking straw.
These consideration would have been much less profound in previous ages, as I said, the age of consent has been 12 or so throughout most of history, and there were always plenty of lower class males looking to escape poverty by any means, including prostitution, same as women, so there might be some class insecurity in there somewhere - as Christians, even lower classes had inclusion, in the sixties, even Biker outlaw biker gangs often wore their Christianity on their sleeves.
Nobody bitched when the Doobies sang Jesus is Just Allright, just sayin'. There is quite a bit more of a bunker mentality going on there now, and now that you can't get away with persecuting heretics, Christ Killers, infidel minorities, or just minorities, Christian or otherwise, they appear to have chosen homosexuals as the symbolic representation the forces of their imagined persecution, "The Gay Agenda", etc. a seething underground of demonic forces (Dionysian erotic energy) who are after their Children!
That little psychodrama is the crux of this whole issue, i.e., even in Rome, it was just fine if you were a top, men, boys, it didn't matter, but there were consequences to being the bottom, it was a crime to top an upper class male - that whole masculine fear of penetration, with a lot of class consciousness issues in there too, penetration=feminization etc., which is also a significant obstacle to acceptance of male homosexuality, see the feminization of poverty.
It's all so goddamn complicated symbolically, that I just quit worrying about it and went with politics and biology: you want to stimulate your prostate? Knock yourself out. As far as I'm concerned it's a goddamned medical procedure. It's a free country: if you can't stick shit up your own ass, or find someone willing to help you out with that, who the hell is really free?
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