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Constitutionality of ACA - 4/3/2012 1:34:28 PM   
PatrickG38


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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/3/2012 11:24:22 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		It's a good argument.

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 12:09:44 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

The Act follows this principle; it provides that with few exceptions Americans who are not insured by their employers or by other government programs must purchase insurance themselves or, if they do not, pay what the Act calls a “penalty” on their tax return.


and if its not bad enough that you cannot afford to pay for health insurance since it is now a tax demanded by the supreme sovereign "gubafia" you will now lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first.

that is only the tip of the iceburg once the gub can FORCE you to buy their services. Rather than more freedom its all being taken away because of their willful neglect sweetheart deals with their buddies in the medical industry.

kiss all the private property bye bye!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/4/2012 12:12:12 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 5:07:39 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

and if its not bad enough that you cannot afford to pay for health insurance since it is now a tax demanded by the supreme sovereign "gubafia" you will now lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first.


Unlike now, where you can get stuck with tens of thousands in hospital bills you cannot afford to pay, "lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first"

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 6:28:42 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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Status: offline 		what are you talking about, its not a secured debt NOW

either the gubafia can or cannot force you to buy their products.

if they can you have no fucking rights at all zippo, if they cant you have rights.

that is the REAL issue at stake here they do not want talked about






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/4/2012 6:30:51 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 6:35:02 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what are you talking about, its not a secured debt NOW

either the gubafia can or cannot force you to buy their products.

if they can you have no fucking rights at all zippo, if they cant you have rights.

that is the REAL issue at stake here they do not want talked about







Is vehicle liability insurance mandatory in your State?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 6:35:34 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		the REAL issue here is the health of the people.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 6:42:43 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

what are you talking about, its not a secured debt NOW


I'm glad you understand how insurance works.

quote:

either the gubafia can or cannot force you to buy their products.


The government forces me to buy goods all the time. They force me to buy expensive emergency care crisis treatment, but disallow the preventive care. They force me to spend billions of excessive dollars on defense, including billions on things the military doesn't even want or need. They force me to contribute to road upkeep if I want to drive my car. They also force me to buy insurance for it. They force me to contribute to telephone taxes to support 911 and other programs. They force me to contribute to medicare/medicaid and to social security. They force me to contribute to schools and fire and police departments.

They don't force me to buy broccoli. I do that because I like it, and it's healthy.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 6:56:47 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's a good argument.


Is it?

The premise of all social insurance plans, including the Social Security program, is that inescapable risks should be shared across a political community between those more and those less at risk. The Act follows this principle; it provides that with few exceptions Americans who are not insured by their employers or by other government programs must purchase insurance themselves or, if they do not, pay what the Act calls a “penalty” on their tax return.

Define inescapable risk? Here's one. Death. All people die. All life, inescapable once one is alive, leads to death. There isn't even risk involved. It's inevitable. Like the claim of healthcare. Eventually all use it at some point. Therefore, under the above premise, all life, and every aspect of it no matter how small, should be regulated from cradle to grave.

Outlandish?

Justice Kennedy, for instance, asked whether the mandate doesn’t “create” commerce rather than regulate it.

Fucking is the main source of life creation. Since all human life engages in commerce all human life is regulatable. Perhaps so is fucking.

Outlandish?

Every American already has health insurance; the mandate only requires that he pay for his insurance rather than free-loading on those who do pay.

Free loading is abhorrent, but so is cost shifting which created the free loading in the first place. This is a case of creating the problem requiring solution (by further intrusion).

So the argument of the government is false at the outset (see premise); because communal sharing (cost shifting) was created by legislation and not occurring naturally, whereupon what was created is now being asked to be treated as naturally occurring. It's not healthcare directly but the cost shifting that is truly being addressed as shown by the mandate.

This whole government argument is laughable. This shit has to stop.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 4/4/2012 7:00:58 AM >

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:10:27 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

They don't force me to buy broccoli. I do that because I like it, and it's healthy.


Ok, they don't. But could they mandate you do if they wished to under the same premise as the government posits? That's the real question your quip avoids.

Scalia didn't avoid it.


< Message edited by Yachtie -- 4/4/2012 7:16:45 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:14:53 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		I've gone around enough times on your misunderstanding of basic economics. I'll let Henry take a shot at it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/henry-aaron/health-care-supreme-court_b_1397807.html

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:15:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

They don't force me to buy broccoli. I do that because I like it, and it's healthy.


Ok, they don't. But could they mandate you do if they wished to under the same premise as the government posits? That's the real question your quip avoids.


AND I've already answered that in the precursor to the quoted portion....points your quip avoids.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:34:38 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

what are you talking about, its not a secured debt NOW

either the gubafia can or cannot force you to buy their products.

if they can you have no fucking rights at all zippo, if they cant you have rights.

that is the REAL issue at stake here they do not want talked about







Is vehicle liability insurance mandatory in your State?




so your point is that its not a violation of MY rights (NOT constitutional rights because constitutionally they can do any fucking thing, even murder you in the name of the state) to force me to buy their shit right?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:36:23 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

what are you talking about, its not a secured debt NOW


I'm glad you understand how insurance works.

quote:

either the gubafia can or cannot force you to buy their products.


The government forces me to buy goods all the time.


well there you go.

since they violate some of your rights whats wrong with violating a few more!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:39:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

and if its not bad enough that you cannot afford to pay for health insurance since it is now a tax demanded by the supreme sovereign "gubafia" you will now lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first.


Unlike now, where you can get stuck with tens of thousands in hospital bills you cannot afford to pay, "lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

and if its not bad enough that you cannot afford to pay for health insurance since it is now a tax demanded by the supreme sovereign "gubafia" you will now lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first.

Unlike now, where you can get stuck with tens of thousands in hospital bills you cannot afford to pay, "lose your house and be put out on the street as soon as they kill or cure you which ever comes first"


God forbid we actually lower care costs.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 7:42:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Still looking for how your magic wand will lower costs.

Meanwhile preventive care in place of emergency care is much cheaper.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 4/4/2012 7:43:14 AM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 12:47:08 PM   
PatrickG38


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Joined: 10/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Still looking for how your magic wand will lower costs.

Meanwhile preventive care in place of emergency care is much cheaper.






There are some good ways to lower cost, but Americans are loathe to discuss them. Indeed, it was not the Mandate Republicans were most against, but rather the Medicare savings, ironic, I know, and they disgracefully fear mongered about end-of-life planning. Universal health care does contribute to lowering cost as people with coverage tend to get treated before the cost of treatment escalates, get preventative care, vaccines, etc. I have tried to remind people that the TB or measles of an uninsured person is your problem as well if ever you come within a few square feet of you. No one has addressed that the uninsured not only are the source of economic risk, but the source of medical and mortal risk in that they increase the likelihood of disease transmission. I wish the administration had asked me to handle the oral argument.

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 1:23:32 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline 		For those seriously interested on some issues not terribly well-covered. I am linking an excellent bried on Congresses taxing power.

http://aca-litigation.wikispaces.com/file/view/Amicus+brief+on+constitutional+law+professors.pdf

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 4:46:59 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

They force me to buy expensive emergency care crisis treatment,


I understand that argument.
I also understand there is a very simple solution

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Constitutionality of ACA - 4/4/2012 4:57:23 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		Sure. Let 'em die.

It's weird that the Republicans are hard-over on the mandate. They're the ones that demanded it instead of having a single-payer plan, which is what Obama wanted in the first place.

We're the only first-world country without universal health care. Folks didn't care much as long as the unemployment rate was low enough that the problem was "in the noise". Only now, with widespread unemployment, has the problem of insurance-tied-to-employment finally made the news.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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