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RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 8:14:06 AM   
serenity2u


Posts: 25
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: MSN
Status: offline 		This is so very true so many lie,cheat and toss away submissves/slaves and even friends in the trash because they are bored or they find other fish..Its hard to open up and trust another and then over a course of a year or two, were trying to meet , one decided its not good enough and toss away all the love and trust they had built up together in that two years even after a contract,a marriage proposal,everything that two have in RT..It hurts like hell and then to find out he had been talking to 7 other subs on the side .. This hurts bad..But I will survive and I will be stronger and my life will be happy once again.. Theres no certain way to know if the other is sincere in their words,not even on the phone..I just donot know what to say I would say first meetings would work but what if that person is 2000 miles away and you have no finances to get there right then?? Does loyalty exist? Does honesty exist should be the question...This was a very needed post and it had to be made sooner or later im glad it was sooner..People say don't give your heart away,but after a year or two your heart is there with that person anyway so I cannot speak on hearts but I can on honesty..Just be honest in all things,but always have that door open to make sure. I mean always check them out in case it never hurts to be right but it does if you're wrong.. be well and safe its your life,happiness and love use them wisely and safely.. hugs serenity




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RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 9:27:08 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think that its wonderful that people find great advocates in their dominant partners. I am only saying here that submissives dont have the exclusive contract on heartache..


DOMS ARE PEOPLE TOO


thorns is right.. there are as many liars, cheats, and grand manipulators on this side of the fence.. If you think you are the only one who has been used and abused I can assure my dear .. come talk to some of us Dominants we have war stories... myself for example.. lost all of my dead mothers jewellery to a male submissive who helped himself to my jewellery box.. and what can I do about it ..nada.. My professional life prevents me from outting myself.. so I learned.. a very very expensive and very very hard lesson.. it changed me and not necessarily for the good... but I dont boohoo about it on the boards.. and I dont blame anyone for my gullability.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to serenity2u)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 9:42:15 AM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		You know really the bottom line of this is that everyone gets hurt sometime. Regardless of if you are sub or dom. Bdsm, or vanilla. It's sad, it's awful. Some people need to share their grief with other people in order to get over it. Some don't, or can't. No one should belittle anyone else for what has happened to them. I was molested as a child. I don't say that because I wan't someone to pity me, or feel sad, I say it because it's a fact. It happened a long time ago and I'm mostly (Never completely)over it. I say it often because sometimes that person out there needs to know s/he is not alone.
As adults we sometimes do stupid things, it doesn't really make what happened any less awful to the person it happened to.
I think anyone who says only subs can get hurt is ignorrant. At the same time, anyone who thinks it's a little unfeeling if you say well, yeah that sub got hurt, but what was s/he think?
No one carried the award for the most wounded and done wrong.
Keep one thing in mind, once you're a victim predators know it. It is up to the victim to get over what happened and let it go. Or it WILL keep happening. That doesn't mean they have to do it alone, and props to anyone who has the strength to help someone like that. But in the end it had to be done for yourself, you have to deside not to be a victim and not to let the 'bad' people win.
I'm not trying to point fingers to anyone who posted here, I'm not trying to refer to any one post, just the thing as a whole.

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 10:08:14 AM   
Tearanny


Posts: 29
Joined: 10/19/2004
Status: offline 		I can say again, that she did cover all the bases, she had been inside his house, she talked to his friends and coworkers, she ofcourse said she didnt date married men. HE LIED!! I will not continue telling the story of my sub, I can tell that regardless of how innocent she was, and how well her bases were covered there will be those that blame her for the deceit and falling for it. I made a statement, a passionate pissed off statement, I dont regret it. I see close to everyone here is sooo very willing to blame the victim for being stupid. All I can say is that you are wrong in my opinion. It is far from always the victims fault, esp someone new in the scene. I am now bowing out of this mess that I did not mean to create. I thought there was people that had the same type of experiences as myself, I see that is not the case. I see so many people judging and degrading for differing opinions, not at all attractive or something I wish to participate further in.

(in reply to srahfox)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 10:32:05 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		No what you said was...


quote:

To the fakes and liars I say you better watch yourself...True Dominants like myseslf will be waiting and watching for you to slip up, and when you do...We will be there!! To hold you accountable for your actions


A true Dom... like true Masters.. can you tell me where you got that certification.. always a line at sends red flags up for me..

No one is saying that people dont get hurt.. that she wasnt in a bad situation with a manipulator.. but rarely do you find a situation that is completely one persons fault... we all shoulder responsiblity for the disasters we help create in our lives.. thats all...To go postal. and vote them off the island is neither practical nor really possible.. because all he has to do is say I told I was married.. and BLANK.. there goes your smoking gun.. the people who like her will believe her and visa versa. Better just to offer you opinion of a person when asked and chaulk it up to experience and move on..

picking up your marbles and not playing anymore is counter productive to what this board is about open honest debate about issues. Just because you disagree with someone doesnt make their opinion less valuable.. no one should seek validation for their opinions on any message board.. because your never going to concensus build.. because everyones got an opionion and rarely is it going to be exactly the same as yours... use this as a tool to express..debate and maybe learn about yourself and others.. and thats me done with this.. be well...

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Tearanny)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 10:34:21 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

i'm very sorry to hear of the unfortunate conflicts that Your submissive was dealt with and i admire You greatly for providing her succor in dealing with these things. i also understand Your frustration with the comments made as You are placed in a place of protection over Your submissive and so, rightly, take offense to those who see her as being in the wrong. Please do understand though that the Dom/mes that have made these comments to you have also been in the place of hearing many, many 'Big Bad Dom/me' stories through the course of Their interaction on these boards. How much sympathy does a Dom/me generally receive after relating a heartbreak story of Their own? Usually not much. How many submissives will use a heartbreak story in order to generate empathy for themselves only to use that as a weapon against a Dom/me as the relationship progresses? Quite a few. The world (both vanilla and BDSM) is filled with users, abusers, a-holes and jack-offs. Everyone deals with this reality in different ways. Some wish to pursue those perpetrating said offenses and forcibly reinfoce a good measure of common goodwill, others learn to shield and protect themselves and so expect others to do the same. Just as You feel so very passionate about these things so do Those who responded to Your posts. Life (and this Lifestyle in particular) is a passionate thing and so one must expect a certain amount of heat to be expressed especially when dealing with an issue that has touched nearly all of those viewing.

(in reply to Tearanny)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 10:45:42 AM   
GoddessJules


Posts: 549
Status: offline
quote:

I see so many people judging and degrading for differing opinions, not at all attractive or something I wish to participate further in.


Hmmmmmmmmm. . .let me refresh your memory. . .
quote:

Because of the assholes that have lied, promised the world and delivered nothing but pain and baggage


I think we all got the gist of what you were trying to say. . .and in my first post I said that I was going to give the benefit of doubt that the intentions of the original post was good. I think that the tone and language used toward the end of the post turned it from being something serious to consider. . .into something I could hardly take seriously.

Jules

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(in reply to Tearanny)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 11:19:07 AM   
duktigflicka


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		Unless I'm missing something very large indeed, the kind of abuse subs may be vulnerable to is not nearly the same as some cruelty that doms may experience. There's nothing specific to being a dom that would make them open to abuse, as far as I can see. I can vouch from experience that there are certainly doms who are looking for sugar daddies/mommies. I lost a brand new BMW and several thousand dollars to one. It made me extremely angry, but it wasn't abuse and it wasn't traumatic. Compare that with, for instance, an abusive dom stuffing a sub in a box and leaving them there while s/he's sobbing and screaming out the safe word. Hardly the same as getting some money stolen.

The point is, subs are vulnerable to abuse in ways that doms are not. I'm not saying I have any solution at my fingertips, but we can't just say that every abuse victim is at fault because they should have known better.

And as for the whole warning signs spiel, I must repeat that I think it's horribly unfair. Not everyone can see the warning signs, especially if they're new to the community and inexperienced. Lots of abusers have the act of being a good guy or gal down to a fine art. If the warning signs were so obvious then nobody would get abused in the first place. Please, can we just leave the blame on the abuser?

(in reply to GoddessJules)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 11:23:58 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

What about the submissives who encourage a Dominant to mark them (be it bruises, cuttings, etc) and then for some unbeknowst reason decides to head off to the ER and report an abusive situation? Dom/mes partake in the trust game as well and can be hurt very badly also. i'm not in any way saying that the victim should be blamed only that there is possiblity for a Dom/me to be hurt as well.

Well wishes

(in reply to duktigflicka)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 11:25:46 AM   
slavewithnoname


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline 		my 2 cents worth....
It's not just the sub/slaves that have been hurt.... Doms/Masters have also been used, hurt, and discarded. This goes both ways. Try finding a Dom that doesn't have trust issues... then again, I guess we can all say that the sub/slave is at greater "risk" of that then the Dom/Master? For the most part I disagree... would agree only in the physical sense, and even then I'm not so sure that the sub/slave stands to be hurt worse. Life has it's thorns (no pun intended Master Thorns) and we just have to brush ourselves off, take a breath and be gratefull we made it through before we take a step and continue to live our lives. We should learn from these experiences yes, but we should never stop living because the dreams are so hard to find..... if they were so easy to attain... would we really want them?
just a thought...
~slavegirl~

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 12:21:32 PM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		Okay, Just because it's a different kind of abuse doesn't mean it's not just as bad. Talk to children who been abused in different ways and see how they feel. It's the same thought. Whatever the abuse it, it's bad to the person who experianced it. So while a Dom is not as likely to be locked up and beat, that's not to say they aren't going to get hurt. If you are a sub who truely believes that then you really have no idea what they go threw. Being dom is just as hard on them and being sub is on us. You still have to put all your trust and hope into someone.
Tearanny, what happened to your sub was awful and shouldn't have happened. Maybe she did cover all the bases and maybe she didn't. But you shouldn't post something here unless you expect to get some differing oppinions. Something you might want to think about. Maybe you aren't finding these people because every sub has been abused in some way, but because you can help them. It seems like every friend I have has been abused, so if you went by that you would assume that everyone has been abused. that's not true, I just attract that kind of people.
Sense there is really nothing you can do to these people, why don't you just hold out your hand and help the one's you can.

(in reply to slavewithnoname)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 6:02:21 PM   
jillwfsub4blkdom


Posts: 375
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		i think it was said before but be it Dom/Dommes or subs/slaves we are all accountable as long as we are adults. Noone has the corner on being hurt or trust issues. i know Estring said that often times victims do ignore red flags and we kind of let common sense go away. i also think that if someone continually gets involved with a certain type of person then there is something within that person's personality that is attracting that type. A little self examination will help determine why that is.

jill

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RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 7:44:54 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I can vouch from experience that there are certainly doms who are looking for sugar daddies/mommies. I lost a brand new BMW and several thousand dollars to one. It made me extremely angry, but it wasn't abuse and it wasn't traumatic.


Comparsions rarely work.. my mother was my only family.. died.. she left me what little she had worked hard all her life for.. a wedding band.. custom made for her by my father too dead.. and a ruby ring I bought her with with my first paycheck... some hundred year old pearls her great aunt left her.. a few baubles.. but as one of the very few tangible connections I have with an adored parent... I cherished them... do I miss my engagement ring and five year anniversary band absolutely .. but I still have my hubby sooo yes angry at the loss of those two items to someone I let not only into my house but into my service and into my heart but not devastated.. I am devasted by the loss of those irreplacable items from my mother and I grieve them like I grieve the loss of my mother. So please dont tell me what kind of pain is comparative..

Screaming sobbing subs locked in boxes.. terrible terrible terrible.. but hey I got news for you.. we take risks every time we play... we trust that the person on the other end who every day is normal and sane doesnt have a break with reality and we end up strung up with a knife at our throat.. that some medication doesnt interact and we dont end up tied to a table in the garage while our Dommely dom is blabbering in vulcan in the corner.. or that a bad day occurs and Mr/Ms perfect is preoccupied and that whip lays open our backs .. so RISK AWARE CONSENSUAL KINK.. you roll the dice when you play!!! And, we as dominant take the risk that ms lovely doesnt haul her happy ass down to the nearest rape crisis center and we end up in jail living with someone from Deliverance..

Everybody hurts.. everybody takes risk.. neither end is more vulnerable than the other.. I am sick to death of the idea that submissives are china dolls needing to be wrapped up in cotton wool.. poor dears cant be responsible for their own happiness or choices.. not strong enough.. what absolute cowpukey.. solid emotionally well submissives are some of the strongest people I know.. some of the most intelligent, most outspoken, most risk aware people... sing me another song please because that broken record is annoying, degrading and dismissive of the power of submission. People who get taken advantage would get taken advantage no matter if they are involved in bdsm or goth or vanilla or religion or what ever!!!.. people who are needy get played and those players are everywhere.. what did say PT BARNUM ..
quote:

there is one born every mintue
.

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 10/28/2004 7:56:08 PM >

_____________________________

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Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/28/2004 8:27:33 PM   
MistresKatamaura


Posts: 34
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Sounds just like what happens in the vanilla world to some people. You just have to make sure you goto their house and run checks on the people that you are going to get involved with. Just when you start dating them inform them that you will be running a backround check on them. I know more and more women are doing that. Marriage, divorce, income tax and checking out their real identity. I think that is keeping safe. Not invading someone's privacy, especially when you are going to be trusting your body to someone.

(in reply to aliljaded1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 6:21:45 AM   
srahfox


Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly what I was trying to say. Hurt runs both ways. I'm a sub and I'd be pissed if someone told me I was a china doll that needed to be coddled. Have I been hurt? Hell yes, My Dom was there for me and helped me how he could, but in the end I had to make that choice. We all have our own demons, but from what everything people say about me, I'm a very strong person. I know that I am.
I sure you did, but did you ever check the pawn shops?

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 6:35:36 AM   
duktigflicka


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		Sylverdawn, I am very sorry for what happened to you, I truly am.

However, I still hold fast to the assertion that it isn't something a person is vulnerable to because they are a dom. Subs, doms and vanillas can all have awful things happen to them. But subs are especially vulnerable. My saying that subs are especially vulnerable does not belittle any things that have happened to any doms. It simply states that subs are at a particularly high risk which I very much believe and very much think it's important to be aware of.

Bdsm and abuse do have one thing in common - they are both about power. Thus, there are definitely going to be some people who are turned on by power and will not respect the gaping difference between bdsm and abuse. And I know that these people are out there because I've seen what they've done to people I know and I've run into them myself. Denying this will, in my humble opinion, open people up for danger.

(in reply to srahfox)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 7:03:49 AM   
ShadowHwk


Posts: 158
Joined: 1/5/2004
From: New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: duktigflicka

Not to be rude, but there seems to be an awful lot of blaming the victim in this thread. I know many subs who have unwittingly got themselves in an abusive relationship and it strikes me as absolutely horrible for someone to take the attitude that it's their fault because they should have known it was going to happen. Moreover, many subs have suffered crushing blows to their self-esteem and self-worth and so entered into abusive relationships because they thought they deserved it, or even sadder - that's all they've ever known. Please have a little understanding.


Have to disagree here. I have read the posts. I don't see any "blame" being laid on the victim. What is being discussed is the mistakes she MIGHT have made - trying to determine if she missed any red flags. What I do see here, and I agree, is a general consensus that each individual is responsible for themselves.

There are mean people in this world, and those that will go to great ends to deceive others. That is the way of the world. No one "owes" anyone a fair encounter with a potential mate/partner/dom/sub. It doesn't work that way. Most folks find themselves a bit blind when the hearts desires begin to bloom - myself included.

In this case it sounds like a case of "too good to be true" - if something seems that way it seldom is. They seemed compatible, he was working, he put her up in a house (thereby reinforcing her belief that he respected her and her concerns), and helped her find work. Of course she fell for it - hell most folks would. The ONLY significant red flag that I have seen discussed is the one where she had never been to his house - that is one that should never be ignored.

Just my .02
Terry


(in reply to duktigflicka)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 7:38:10 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: duktigflicka

Subs, doms and vanillas can all have awful things happen to them. But subs are especially vulnerable. My saying that subs are especially vulnerable does not belittle any things that have happened to any doms. It simply states that subs are at a particularly high risk which I very much believe and very much think it's important to be aware of.

Bdsm and abuse do have one thing in common - they are both about power. Thus, there are definitely going to be some people who are turned on by power and will not respect the gaping difference between bdsm and abuse. And I know that these people are out there because I've seen what they've done to people I know and I've run into them myself. Denying this will, in my humble opinion, open people up for danger.



Greetings,

Thank you for being understanding of the differing viewpoints that have been expressed on this thread.

Something that strikes my curiousity about your comments regarding the vulnerability of subs/slaves...

Your viewpoint seems to me that it might be a sort of evolved self-protection that stems from the experiences that you have seen and experienced. By viewing yourself and other subs/slaves as being vulnerable to abuse, manipulation, etc are you hardening yourself so that more care and caution is exercised on your/others' part to prevent such occurrences from happening?

If so, i can follow the line of reasoning as it is something that i have struggled with myself as i'm sure that others have done so as well. Sometimes, our greatest strength is also our greatest weakness. Because it is my nature to please, assist and serve there have been times where i have been placed in a situation where my giving nature has been taken advantage of. Now, granted most of these times i have been fully aware of what is going on and chose to continue in the hopes that in doing so i would be able to help someone along their path of life regardless of the damage it might have been doing to myself. I say this because i have taken the time to identify and qualify those parts of me that might be vulnerable to abuse and therefore can recognize those acts when they occur. By doing so i believe that i have, for the most part, taken an inherent weakness in myself and have transformed it into a strength that i have been able to use to assist others. This has been possible only because i was able to realize that the other person(s) involved were not necessarily acting in my best interests and therefore took steps to protect myself during the process of continuing to relate to them. At times, those surrounding me were able to see that there are people in the world that will help others while expecting nothing in return and at other times, those surrounding me were too wrapped up in themselves to see what was being offered so freely to them. Those incapable of understanding were then left behind to ponder what it was that passed them by. In either case, i was able to provide a valuable life lesson to these people (if they choose to open their hearts and minds enough to see it).

All that being said, i can see similar struggles that Dom/mes must go through. Many Dom/mes exhibit a very strong nurturing and protective spirit that can be used against Them. The Knight(ess) in Shining Armor syndrome if you will. And so these Dom/mes must work to identify these predispositions in Themselves. Each person has their own way of doing this and the methods may very well vary as their experience in life progresses.

To sum it up - does my submissive nature make me weak or vulnerable? No, i believe that it makes me stronger and more able to contribute to the society around me. Does a Dominant nature make one weaker or more vulnerable? Not if They do a bit of self introspection. And thus the same for other submissives, slaves and the kink/vanilla populous in general.

(in reply to duktigflicka)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 9:07:05 PM   
stormiKnightBEAR


Posts: 306
Joined: 3/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: duktigflicka


However, I still hold fast to the assertion that it isn't something a person is vulnerable to because they are a dom. Subs, doms and vanillas can all have awful things happen to them. But subs are especially vulnerable. My saying that subs are especially vulnerable does not belittle any things that have happened to any doms. It simply states that subs are at a particularly high risk which I very much believe and very much think it's important to be aware of.

Denying this will, in my humble opinion, open people up for danger.



Greetings,
This thread is interesting to say the least.

But this slave must agree with SylverDawn. On the other hand, duktigflicka...... the statement that
quote:

"subs are especially vulnerable"
is in this girl's opinion and open slap in the face.

While this is off the mark a little it is very much in reference to your comments that said, this girl is curious........

This girl's question to you is simply this. Does being able to trust someone enough to allow (yes, stormi used the word allow and meant to) them (the Dom) to control, make decisions, require the person to answer to them for behavior make the sub/slave a "weak" person? Does second guessing everything you do because you know it's a reflection on how your Dom/Master wants you to behave and making alternative decisions so that you do not disrespect/disappoint your Dom/Master, make a sub/slave weak?
Go one step farther. Does accepting and placing yourself in a poly, where in certain public situations (*career*) you have to be referred to as friend, yet in others and in the home you live in you are known as a slave, does finding yourself in one of those situations and needing comfort from your Dom/Master and yet being unable to express that at the time make a sub/slave weak?


If you answered yes to any of those......this girl is of the opinion you've not spent much time talking or observing service in RT. There are very few, yes there are some, but dang few sub/slaves that the word "weak" can be used to discribe.

There are times, this girl would like to scream and rant at life's unfairness in certain areas. But this is the life that stormi chose. And yes it is a choice. A choice to have a life that is fulfilled or one that you chose to ignore your calling or if it makes it better to say feelings you can inject that word in here.

Bad things happen to all people in all walks of life. No one deserves them no matter the position.

Be well,

stormi
property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to duktigflicka)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: **Betrayed Trust** - 10/29/2004 11:17:04 PM   
lilninotchka


Posts: 121
Joined: 8/27/2004
Status: offline 		Perhaps 'vulnerable' and 'weak' do not mean the same thing here?

i can agree that someone with a submissive personality is not weak, but i can also agree that they are vulnerable. The simple fact that many predatory types 'think' those who identify as submissive are weak makes them more vulnerable to (open to) attempts of abuse/violence. That is not a reflection on the submissive, but rather on the predator. There are also the predatory types who are quite intelligent and work very hard to become as undetectible as possible simply in order to get close enough to someone to make them a victim.

We don't always see those signs until we are looking backwards, no matter how hard we look - whether you identify as dominant or submissive, i would think that applies.

my opinion only, of course

(in reply to stormiKnightBEAR)
Profile   Post #: 40
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