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ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

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Ste{e}l is out of the question. Not, it's not. In order to use steel, the projectiles would have to be coated with a thick jacket of softer metal such as copper or *Teflon* or the steel will destroy the barrel. That's already being done, full metal jacket. It doesn't matter what the coating is. Yes, it does matter, because the wrong coating can burn, gall, corrode, or be an environmental fuckup, but let's set that aside for now. Steel bullets are capable of penetrating armor and fortifications such as thick metals and brick walls. Obviously, more so than lead but less than tungsten or depleted uranium, in sabots, but that's military-grade stuff. The next thing we're gunna hear is cop killer ammo bla bla. Nonsense, steel bullets that mushroom and/or fragment on impact are already on the market.

The cost of making steel bullets that are safer for the environment than lead bullets is pretty much a wash or slightly cheaper than lead. With the exception of ballistic impact range, all the other yammering gun-nutcase objections have already been addressed.

So, why do they keep ranting and raving? ... Does that have more to do with their trying to hyperbolate divisive 'issues' against anything thay can contrive as political-machination of their liberals-are-attacking-pseudocons paranoia rallying-cry?

... (Note, the comment above was addressed to certain political groups in general, and not to any particular poster(s), so if they choose to pretend to be offended, it's entirely in their minds that the shoe presented fit them.)
 
...

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ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
"The ammo that is fired," I'll buy but the article specified ammo that was in gut piles and animals that weren't tracked. That still comes to a half pound of lead/hunter/year IN AN ABANDONED ANIMAL.
It's way too high. I'm voting for sensationalistic reporting that targets people who don't know any better and don't want to.

Hill, I agree that it is probably sensationalistic! Actually, strike probably from the previous sentence. But the question is, why did this group suddenly care (or is it sudden?) If they started finding evidence that bald eagles are suffering from lead poisoning, they probably went nuts and overblew their case.
However, if bald eagles are suffering from lead poisoning, then they have a case, right?
If so, then shouldn't we have a reasoned debate on both the costs of changing the current bullets, and the benefit? I think I have been pretty fair agreeing both that costs would go up using copper bullets and that the bullets would have less range. I also agreed that range time would increase the cost of the change, since any good hunter will want to learn their gun's quirks at the range with the ammo they are using in the field.
So could you meet me partway here? What amount of damage to bald eagles do you think would be fair in exchange for keeping the current bullets, saving 15 cents per shot???

Edit to trim post and to add: BTW, if there is no real damage to the Eagle population, then I agree there is no need to change the ammo. What I am asking is "if there is damage, what amount do hunters feel is OK to save money on ammo?" A human life in the US is worth $80,000,000. Is an eagle worth $100,000?

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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Still waiting for you to answer any of the objections that have been raised to you lumping together all environmentalists into an evil antieverything massive, while we're talkiing about strawmen, sweetie.

You'll be waiting an eternity, all enviros are nutbags. Speaking again of straw men, do you even have a dog in this hunt? How exactly are gun laws in the US a concern of yours?

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

Actually those are steel jacketed bullets currently on the market, they are lead bullets with a steel jacket to keep them togeter till impact. And they are hollow point often with the jackets designed to split on impact. Haveing a lowere density than lead steel bullets would have less impact than lead. This would mean more wounded animals. Price would not be a wash and the increase would be one more thing making it harder to hunt. Earlier it was poiont out that copper bullets would lead to a mere 20% increase in the cost of ammo with the claim that this would be of little or no importance. No cost is a big deal if someone else has to pay it.

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Still waiting for you to answer any of the objections that have been raised to you lumping together all environmentalists into an evil antieverything massive, while we're talkiing about strawmen, sweetie.

You'll be waiting an eternity, all enviros are nutbags. Speaking again of straw men, do you even have a dog in this hunt? How exactly are gun laws in the US a concern of yours?

We're not all nutbags. I'm on the board of directors of the local Trout Unlimited chapter.

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ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Lead was removed from paint in 1978, from copper pipe solder in 1986, from gasoline in 1995, RoHS standards (lead-free electrical solder) implemented in 2006, all involving tens of thousands of companies, all with some initial increase in cost and inconvenience, both which reduced to at or below previous levels within a few years, and then now some proposal to do likewise for hunting bullets ... Whoah Nelly!

Hunters are 'speshul,' don't those commie envirowackos know that?

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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam



We're not all nutbags. I'm on the board of directors of the local Trout Unlimited chapter.

Trout Unlimited, like Ducks Unlimited are not enviro nut groups, there's a big difference between certain conservation groups and groups like The Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and the group mentioned in the story.

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
What about fishermen?
I'd say that lead in sinkers and jigheads is at least an order of magnitude higher than bullets. God knows Ive lost a bunch,

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for your helicopter hunts, that is for people who can afford several hundred dollars/hour. Do you know any? I dont. I've met between hundreds and thousands of hunters and never met one. I wonder how many are out there? a few dozen?
"okay, there ain't millions of hunters can afford that ..."
Join us in the real world please.
Care to join in the reality of reading what was effing posted? I already addressed that.

As for hunting varmints:
1. The bullet goes all the way thru so it isnt left in the carcass. Sorry but you obviously didnt read my post where I specified anything smaller than an elk, moose or bear typically has full penetration.

There's nothing like a small amount of FACTS to upset people who were ranting out their ass about what other people didn't read or didn't know.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/short-summary.html 
"The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel."
There are a lot of varmints less than 11 inches in width, length, etc. Are you capable of thinking through the math and stats on that or not?

Drunken hunters? That's so stupid, Im not even going to grace it with a reply. You're just playing with the stereotypes and proving your own ignorance.
I bet you're one of those people that thinks everyone in the South still wears sheets on weekends and travels on steamboats.

Nah, I live in the South, and I've quit a half-dozen hunting leases because too many of the jackasses on them downed a case of Bud before they arrived on Friday night and two quarts of Jack before they left on Sunday. The other half-dozen or so might indulge in a couple drinks in the evening, but they hunted sober. From personal experience, the stats are about 50-50. And the nasty thing about stereotypes is their elements of truth.


Steel bullets:
Again, you're demonstrating a total lack of knowledge of the subject. Steel is much harder than copper, brass and lead. A steel bullet would rip the rifling (internal grooves that give the bullet spin) out of the barrel within just a few rounds. Fulol metal jacket is NOY steel. It is typically a copper alloy.
"Sure, there are some non-linear factors to consider in the ballistics, and some details of coatings, jackets, etc involved in wear of the barrels,"
Again, is there some sort of problem you have with reading and comprehending what I already posted? About a third of what I get paid enough salary to make the top-bracket involves forensic metallurgy. Frankly, you don't know squat about topic.

The hardness would also increase hazards such as riccochets and overpenetration.
If you find all steel bullets on the market for consumer use, please verify. Ive never seen any for civilian use.
Considering your demonstrated other ignorances, is not knowing about Raug's RWS or S&B's Range-Safe a surprise?

In the future, please attempt to gain a semblance of knowledge of a subject prior to posting.
Perhaps you should practice an iota of what you post before ranting about other people not having a semblance of knowledge of which you've been soundly demonstrate to have much less than you pretend.

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ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Actually those are steel jacketed bullets currently on the market, they are lead bullets with a steel jacket to keep them togeter till impact. And they are hollow point often with the jackets designed to split on impact. Haveing a lowere density than lead steel bullets would have less impact than lead. This would mean more wounded animals. Price would not be a wash and the increase would be one more thing making it harder to hunt. Earlier it was poiont out that copper bullets would lead to a mere 20% increase in the cost of ammo with the claim that this would be of little or no importance. No cost is a big deal if someone else has to pay it.

The 20% was an estimate before I crunched the numbers a little more thoroughly. For a Winchester .30 rifle, the cost of switching to copper is 15 cents per round, a bit over 10%. That said, I think the bigger issue is not the expense, but the difference in range? Gonna have to ask my Grandfather (big hunter of deer) if the range of the weapon is generally an issue, or if tree density renders rifle range moot...

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I know that. I was just wondering what the fuck the tirade of paranoid nonsense from Fox has to do with that...

As near as rational people can figure it out, conservative anti-environmentalism is tied up with fundamentalist christianity's belief that the end of the world is imminent and to speed up the second coming they want things to get as bad as possible as fast as possible.

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ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for your helicopter hunts, that is for people who can afford several hundred dollars/hour. Do you know any? I dont. I've met between hundreds and thousands of hunters and never met one. I wonder how many are out there? a few dozen?
"okay, there ain't millions of hunters can afford that ..."
Join us in the real world please.
Care to join in the reality of reading what was effing posted? I already addressed that.

As for hunting varmints:
1. The bullet goes all the way thru so it isnt left in the carcass. Sorry but you obviously didnt read my post where I specified anything smaller than an elk, moose or bear typically has full penetration.

There's nothing like a small amount of FACTS to upset people who were ranting out their ass about what other people didn't read or didn't know.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/short-summary.html 
"The ballistic tip bullet (rapid expansion) had the highest fragmentation rate, with an average of 141 fragments per carcass and an average maximum distance of 11 inches from the wound channel."
There are a lot of varmints less than 11 inches in width, length, etc. Are you capable of thinking through the math and stats on that or not?

Drunken hunters? That's so stupid, Im not even going to grace it with a reply. You're just playing with the stereotypes and proving your own ignorance.
I bet you're one of those people that thinks everyone in the South still wears sheets on weekends and travels on steamboats.

Nah, I live in the South, and I've quit a half-dozen hunting leases because too many of the jackasses on them downed a case of Bud before they arrived on Friday night and two quarts of Jack before they left on Sunday. The other half-dozen or so might indulge in a couple drinks in the evening, but they hunted sober. From personal experience, the stats are about 50-50. And the nasty thing about stereotypes is their elements of truth.


Steel bullets:
Again, you're demonstrating a total lack of knowledge of the subject. Steel is much harder than copper, brass and lead. A steel bullet would rip the rifling (internal grooves that give the bullet spin) out of the barrel within just a few rounds. Fulol metal jacket is NOY steel. It is typically a copper alloy.
"Sure, there are some non-linear factors to consider in the ballistics, and some details of coatings, jackets, etc involved in wear of the barrels,"
Again, is there some sort of problem you have with reading and comprehending what I already posted? About a third of what I get paid enough salary to make the top-bracket involves forensic metallurgy. Frankly, you don't know squat about topic.

The hardness would also increase hazards such as riccochets and overpenetration.
If you find all steel bullets on the market for consumer use, please verify. Ive never seen any for civilian use.
Considering your demonstrated other ignorances, is not knowing about Raug's RWS or S&B's Range-Safe a surprise?

In the future, please attempt to gain a semblance of knowledge of a subject prior to posting.
Perhaps you should practice an iota of what you post before ranting about other people not having a semblance of knowledge of which you've been soundly demonstrate to have much less than you pretend.

... Oh, and before you run off whining about insults posted to you, I'd suggest that you examine your own posts first ...

...

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though someone else pointed out they were less effective for game hunting?

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far more common than non hunters think

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but based on the stories I hear about hunting varmints, 16 per drunken hunter might be on the low side of average.