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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/9/2012 1:20:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

far more common than non hunters think

Well, that's your opinion.
Unless you have a study that measures both the perception of non-hunters and the actual number of animals lost.....
My opinion (my guess, actually) is exactly the opposite.

Get real.

I've been a hunter for almost 35 years and in that time I've seen numerous carcasses with obvious bullet wounds and no sign that a coup de grace was administered, no trophy was taken and no gutting occured. What other conclusion can be drawn?

What about asking yourself the simple question, why don't you ever see or encounter hunters tracking wounded prey? In that same 35 years it's happened to me maybe 3 times.

If hunters are so good at obeying all the rules why was blaze orange needed? Who teaches hunters to shoot at a poorly identified target? How many drunken hunters do you encounter on a hunting trip? Is it not fairly obvious that for a large percentage of hunters it is an excuse to drink beer and blast away at anything that moves?

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/9/2012 8:59:51 PM   
SilverBoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
If your background is metallurgy, we might have some fun convo's.
That seems unlikely, if earlier posts to this thread are typical of your approach to discussions.
Again, Steel bullets are not what you want for civilian use. The military uses them in some cases for armor piercing rounds but they have to be coated in order to not damage the rifling.
My post on 4/8/2012 at 11:05:24 AM addressed that, have you read it for content?
Bismuth would be a good compromise as it's already used in fishing tackle.
My post on 4/8/2012 at 11:27:38 PM proposed Bismuth as a compromise metal.
Owing to bismuth's crystalline nature, the bismuth bullets shatter into a non-toxic powder on impact, making recovery and recycling easy. The lack of malleability does, however, make bismuth unsuitable for use in expanding hunting bullets.
Bi-Ni alloys with limited ductility date back 60 years, and some metglas powder metallurgy might improve on that, even to the point of pressing into copper shells, which is the way many modern bullets are made.


Anyway, that last might illustrate the difference between a creative, constructive, knowledgeable approach to such topics, and various sorts of accusatory personal assertions, pretensions to expertise, etc. And that doesn't even begin to address how ductile-iron, steel-composite, etc bullets could be engineered by geometry or materials to deform instead of penetrate when striking hard or soft targets.

I'm not particularly interested in further convo about the matter. There's easily enough sprouts there for a half-dozen patents. Maybe have a read and a think before you rant ad-hominem next time ...

...

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/9/2012 9:15:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

[That seems unlikely, if earlier posts to this thread are typical of your approach to discussions.

Funny as hell that you would whine about ad homs and say that.

We both know why you wish no further discussion on the topic.

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SilverBoat)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/10/2012 7:36:32 AM   
SilverBoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
We both know why you wish no further discussion on the topic.


Sure, but at least I'm honest enough to have stated explicitly why, instead of posting dark obliquities intended to save face.
The facts of the matter are that you initiated the ad-hominem exchange, and there's clear record of that in this thread's posts.
It doesn't seem like you're a completely assinine idiot, but I prefer more civility in discussion and on-topic contributions.
That can be done without loading up on ostensibly-deniable snark, even if that's eventually swatted down and diminished ...

Sure, there are several posters to these forums who IMCO are much worse than you've been, and don't get modded for it.
But, I pretty much ignore them, for various reasons, on which I won't further explain here ...

Don't post the snark in the first place, and maybe there can be some discussion.
Otherwise, I've generally got better things to do ...

...

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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From the NRA - 4/14/2012 6:24:11 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		There was a legislative update from the NRA-ILA in my email this morning.

"On Monday, the Environmental Protection Agency denied for the second time a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity and other anti-hunting groups asking the EPA to impose a nationwide ban on the use of ammunition containing lead."

It seems the EPA may actually realize there are limits to its powers.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 6:35:17 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

What about asking yourself the simple question, why don't you ever see or encounter hunters tracking wounded prey? In that same 35 years it's happened to me maybe 3 times.


I do, first of all. Secondly, the carcass can linger for weeks; the hunter has at best a day, maybe two, to track a wounded animal. So of course you see more carcasses than trackers. I have personally found a wounded deer on the second day, but it was as luck and persistence, not skill. The idea of the patient Indian tracker following the trail of a bird through the trees isn't useful. Animals are hard to track. Hit one 30 minutes before dark, in the rain, when you have to work the next day...

I don't wear blaze orange, btw. To me that is the perfect example of nanny statism. If you see me before I see you, well, my bad. I should have the perfect right to wear a deer costume in the woods. There should also be laws indemnifying you from tort or charge should you shoot me while in my deer suit, maybe even if I just fail to wear the blaze orange... but the state has no right to protect me from myself, or to make me protect myself from you.

You should maybe hunt in WV. Great hunting; and I have better impressions of my fellow hunters.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 7:29:53 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

What about asking yourself the simple question, why don't you ever see or encounter hunters tracking wounded prey? In that same 35 years it's happened to me maybe 3 times.


I do, first of all. Secondly, the carcass can linger for weeks; the hunter has at best a day, maybe two, to track a wounded animal. So of course you see more carcasses than trackers. I have personally found a wounded deer on the second day, but it was as luck and persistence, not skill. The idea of the patient Indian tracker following the trail of a bird through the trees isn't useful. Animals are hard to track. Hit one 30 minutes before dark, in the rain, when you have to work the next day...

If you fire when you know you don't have even a few minutes to track a wounded deer then you shouldn't have a hunting license in the first place.

An occassional carcass not found is one thing but we both know it isn't occassional.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 8:05:37 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
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quote:

If you fire when you know you don't have even a few minutes to track a wounded deer then you shouldn't have a hunting license in the first place.


Riiiiiight.

One should hunt basically nocturnal animals 15 minutes per day, said 15 minutes commencing at dawn.


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 8:22:53 AM   
SadoDuncan


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		I am an avid hunter, b-4 qualified and also a gunsmith, So I might be able to have some input. As far as steel goes, it is highly effective in a shot shell. So to prevent lead contamination while duck hunting, I do use them. As for a rifle round, they are to hard to. They would destroy the rifling in the barrel and also to hard for the rifling to be very effective on the bullet, so the accuracy would plummet. On big game you want the knock down power that is a softer bullet can give you rather then passing straight through the target. I am not oppose to a copper bullet, But the prices are higher for the traditional lead round for common hunting rifles than softbonds quoted. Your most basic big game calibers are .308 and .300. .308 being slightly cheaper you will still pay 47 cents for the bullet. This is not the entire cartridge, just the lead bullet. So if it is three times higher for the bullet, now you are looking at adding 97 cents to the overall cartridge that a decent hunting ammo originally cost 1.23 per round making it 2.20 per round. so based on your hypothetical hunting trip, the hunter has spent $22 dollars that day. On the range and average hunter will fire 20 rounds. Now an average hunter might only go to a range once every hunting season so not a big deal, but When I hunt every weekend I frequent the range once a week to confirm my zero and can fire anywhere between 3 and 20 rounds. So yes price does play a factor for big game hunting, but I do believe for duck, dove, rabbit, squirrel, etc., if you can use a shot shell use steel. It is very effective and not ass harmful to the environment and also yourself. It will not bleed into the meat. These are just my own opinions and observations. So take them as you will.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 9:50:41 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

If you fire when you know you don't have even a few minutes to track a wounded deer then you shouldn't have a hunting license in the first place.


Riiiiiight.

One should hunt basically nocturnal animals 15 minutes per day, said 15 minutes commencing at dawn.


I didn't say that.

I said if you cannot hunt responsibly you should not be allowed to hunt.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: Bald eagle in crosshairs of US fight over lead bullets - 4/14/2012 1:48:15 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, but I'm sure you've noticed by now that certain posters find it a lot easier to argue with stuff other people didn't say than what they did...

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(in reply to DomKen)
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