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RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 2:55:18 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


I've never met a dom that defers easily to other doms... but if such people exist, I would imagine it comes from lack of confidence or experience. I would avoid getting in to a scene with such a person just because I would not be certain I knew what to expect. But I suppose such a person will grow with time and experience.



So, you've never met a dominant or gasp, a submissive, person that had more knowledge, awareness, or rank in a leadership role, than you?

Because I would find the lack of ability to defer to someone as a lack of confidence.

Certainly I know I would never be a guest in another persons house and not defer to their house rules. I would not treat it as my own home. If in a certain situation, like a high protocol leather event, LadyPact advised me to sit my ass down and shut up, I would defer to her request. Both in respect for her but also in respect for 'the house' I was in.

Anything else would be crass.

I also find it a weakness for a person to avoid any life situation simply for lack of experience. How else will you gain the experience and knowledge?

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:06:58 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I was just about to say the same thing.

Pleased to meet you.  I'm Lady Pact and when I'm an idiot about something, I'll happily defer to another Dominant if they know more about whatever it is than Me.  That's called being smart enough to know that, in some areas, other people have more knowledge than I do.  I'd be afraid of the folks who can't admit that.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:11:55 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
I've never met a dom that defers easily to other doms... but if such people exist, I would imagine it comes from lack of confidence or experience.

I believe you're not thinking of the right situation. What we are discussing here is not generic deference to their domly aura. We are discussing behaving with propriety and respect. LadyPact hijacked Carol for some wardrobe fun. I wanted the results a bit differently than she did. Carol is mine. LadyPact deferred. Nobody with two neurons to make a synapse would think of her as lacking confidence or experience because of that scenario.

That's what we are talking about... not what I call "BDSM dominance" (eg: blow me bitch).

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:12:59 PM   
Bucephalus


Posts: 93
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I was just about to say the same thing.

Pleased to meet you.  I'm Lady Pact and when I'm an idiot about something, I'll happily defer to another Dominant if they know more about whatever it is than Me.  That's called being smart enough to know that, in some areas, other people have more knowledge than I do.  I'd be afraid of the folks who can't admit that.


And *that* is exactly why I joined this community. I *want* to learn from more experienced doms, and I am grateful for the ones that *have* given me advice, and I am equally grateful for the experienced submissive's who have also offered their point of view. To me, the point of view of a submissive is equally as important the point of view of the dominant.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:20:03 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:



So, you've never met a dominant or gasp, a submissive, person that had more knowledge, awareness, or rank in a leadership role, than you?


Indeed I have met many many Doms and Subs who are more experienced and/or knowledgeable than me. And I am more than happy to defer to others on the topic of experience, play, etiquette etc. In fact, I love learning something new :)

I took the original poster to be talking about a situation where a dom AUTOMATICALLY defers to any other dom in the room as a kind of submission of character.

quote:


Certainly I know I would never be a guest in another persons house and not defer to their house rules. I would not treat it as my own home. If in a certain situation, like a high protocol leather event, LadyPact advised me to sit my ass down and shut up, I would defer to her request. Both in respect for her but also in respect for 'the house' I was in.


Again... I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought. Just as I would in any social situation... if invited to a party at someone's home, I would respect them, their home, and their rules. By "defer" I meant to allow your will and character to be overshadowed by someone elses. This is what I took the original post to be about.

I would say though - in your example - that it seems like you have a preexisting acquaintance with "LadyPact", and perhaps it is already understood that you would come under their Dominant influence.

That said; For myself...even at a house party... if a stranger said such a thing to my sub, I would consider their behavior wholly inappropriate and I would take grave issue with it.

quote:


I also find it a weakness for a person to avoid any life situation simply for lack of experience. How else will you gain the experience and knowledge?


I would find it a weakness too. My sub and I are very open to new experiences, new situations and new ideas.

I was referring to that situation - I'm sure many have experienced it - where you get involved in a scene with someone who is not as experienced, confident or even as comfortable as they said they are, and that can go south very fast. I have also encountered situations where scenes that seem easy going or introductory to me may seem more advanced to someone else. That is why I say I would be wary of getting in to a scene with someone who seemed inexperienced or not confident.

And again... I'm talking about Doms relating to Doms here. It is my opinion that I am my sub's protector. No one should play with her who doesn't have my complete confidence. (sorry...another edit. Interesting conversation :)

I'm not saying I absolutely never would... but in a situation like that the importance of openness, communication and negotiation can't be understated. And I know from my own inexperience in the beginning that the inexperienced can sometimes rush in, expecting everything to happen spontaneously the way they imagine it will, and suddenly find themselves in over their heads.


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 4/11/2012 3:27:29 PM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:33:15 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		@JeffBC

I guess I just misinterpreted the original post. I agree with your comments about the situation you describe.

Just an aside though Jeff... here is the part of the original post I was responding to:

"On the other side of the spectrum, there are some 'dominants' who just yield to any other D type in the room. Not from respecting the dynamic that they have with the submissive, but it's something in them that they know they don't have power in their own right, and when they see those that do, they crumble. It's not submission, exactly, but they see power in someone else that they know they don't have and they react socially in reflection of that. "

It doesn't sound like the situation you described either (shrug)

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 4/11/2012 3:59:42 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:41:39 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss


I think this is the point. Some people ARE shoving it down people's throats....


The perfect example: I was at a play party, talking to a friend who is also female submissive. A male "dominant" walked up, put himself between us and turned his back to me, interrupting our conversation and blocking us off from each other.

I walked around him and informed him that T and I had been having a conversation. He stuck his finger under my chin and told me to shut up and go sit down. Needless to say, both T and I walked away. (By the way, we're not REAL submissives according to him)

People who aren't really a dominant personality tend to confuse being domineering with being dominant.






This would NOT have been okay, Dominant or not. That guy would have had an issue with Me. Being Dominant does not give someone the right to be a jack ass or to physically put your hands on someone(even if it is to just touch their chin). I'm glad to hear both of you girls walked off.

_____________________________

Goddess of Duck Lips and Luxurious Hair
The working Fin Domme
Professional con artist, swindler, trixster, extortionist

Our snark-nado needs more cowbell


(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:48:57 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, social dominants among Dominants?


It's irrelevant to me. I know I would lose all kinds of Who's More Uber competitions, and I'm fine with that. Also, I go to scene events only about once a year, so I'm always deferring socially when I'm at a BDSM event, because I'm socially a noob.

An example that will make you laugh, LadyPact: I finally broke down and bought my first-ever flogger last week. (Really a rubber whip, because I don't buy leather toys.) I wanted an additional sting-y thing I could use on a certain person, so I figured it was time. By the Flogger Measure, I am just about the lamest Top on the block.

But the woman who taught me to scene with a baseball bat was the one who pulled one out of her gym bag and asked me to hit her with it. And you better believe I deferred to her, the sub I was whaling on, because she knew how to be hit safely, and I didn't want to take her to the ER. (I've thought of starting a Baseball Bat thread btw, because someone I know is a self-identified pain slut, and I might want to tell her to drive us to the sporting goods store, so she is actively carrying us to her "demise." I'd be interested in other people's experiences with heavy impact play.)

I've posted this several times over the years, but it's still true: I've learned almost all my topping skills by being mentored by female bottoms and subs.

The bottom line for me is this: I'm not trying to seduce male dominants, so I see no reason to care what they think of me. I want (some) women to think about me and say, "I wonder if..." and I want sub women who like me to trust me enough with their bodies that they let me do things to them that I have never done to anyone before. If I want someone to trust me to that extent, I can't exaggerate my skill; I have to be honest that I don't know what I'm doing.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 3:49:09 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I also find it a weakness for a person to avoid any life situation simply for lack of experience. How else will you gain the experience and knowledge?


Now this I disagree with. I think there are plenty of times when you do better not diving in but taking time to slowly learn about it. Yes you could just pull on a parachute and jump out of that plane, but the odds are better if you sit through the training course, and do the intro jumps with the instructor connected to you.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:05:10 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I apologize for not welcoming you to the forums.  There is a lot to learn here.  I hope you are enjoying the discussion.

I picked on Jeff for this conversation because of a few points.  One of those being that we've had the opportunity to meet face to face, see how we display dominance with our own, and where we do and don't go.  He would not give clip a command and he knows that I would never try to command Carol.  Also, if there are two polar opposites as Masters on these boards, it is probably Jeff and I.  In fact, I gave him sixteen tons of shit when he first showed up here, but over time, I found us more alike than he probably knows about how we look at M/s.  I've told him many times on the other side that I enjoy the things we discuss because it inspires Me to think.

It's the absence of power play between us, as friends, that I was trying to get at with this thread.  We don't jockey for 'social dominance' as so many D types seem to need to do.  Neither he or I need to 'lead the pack'.  Neither of us are threatened by the other so we don't fight for social dominance.  That's not as common as many people would like to believe.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:17:01 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
It's irrelevant to me. I know I would lose all kinds of Who's More Uber competitions, and I'm fine with that. Also, I go to scene events only about once a year, so I'm always deferring socially when I'm at a BDSM event, because I'm socially a noob.

An example that will make you laugh, LadyPact: I finally broke down and bought my first-ever flogger last week. (Really a rubber whip, because I don't buy leather toys.) I wanted an additional sting-y thing I could use on a certain person, so I figured it was time. By the Flogger Measure, I am just about the lamest Top on the block.

But the woman who taught me to scene with a baseball bat was the one who pulled one out of her gym bag and asked me to hit her with it. And you better believe I deferred to her, the sub I was whaling on, because she knew how to be hit safely, and I didn't want to take her to the ER. (I've thought of starting a Baseball Bat thread btw, because someone I know is a self-identified pain slut, and I might want to tell her to drive us to the sporting goods store, so she is actively carrying us to her "demise." I'd be interested in other people's experiences with heavy impact play.)

I've posted this several times over the years, but it's still true: I've learned almost all my topping skills by being mentored by female bottoms and subs.

The bottom line for me is this: I'm not trying to seduce male dominants, so I see no reason to care what they think of me. I want (some) women to think about me and say, "I wonder if..." and I want sub women who like me to trust me enough with their bodies that they let me do things to them that I have never done to anyone before. If I want someone to trust me to that extent, I can't exaggerate my skill; I have to be honest that I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm sorry, Hon, but I did laugh.  I would have never pegged you for buying a flogger.  If you are adverse to leather products, I could pull an old thread up for you  that was damn creative material for producing sting.  Cheap material, too, if you were so inclined.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:18:35 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
It's the absence of power play between us, as friends...

Well, not that I don't see us as friends, but honestly that's not why I don't jockey for position with you. I'd have a few questions about that concept. Questions like:


  • Position on which field?
  • How is score being kept?
  • What's prize goes to the winner?


I try not to "jockey" for position because in general I see it as beneath me. By definition such things are the mock-combat that I so dislike. When you and I met, there was no shared field, no prize to be won, and nobody keeping score. Ergo, any competition would've been just strutting and preening. Ewwwwwww.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:20:37 PM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		Hi LadyPact... Thanks for the welcome :)

I got that you and Jeff relate to each other well as Doms. That's the kind of interaction I seek out... mutual respect all round makes for a good scene.

I know - or think I know - the kinds of less appealing interactions I took you to be describing, and was essentially just agreeing with your assessment of them.

:)

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:21:25 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If you are adverse to leather products, I could pull an old thread up for you  that was damn creative material for producing sting.  Cheap material, too, if you were so inclined.

Please do, I'd love to read it.

There are "vegan floggers" by the way, and I've considered getting a couple. Then I could learn 6-point Florentine and be all officially Domly and stuff.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:24:59 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
...and was essentially just agreeing with your assessment of them.

yeah, that's what I thought you meant.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:51:34 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		I LOVE COUNT BOOGIE!!!! Funny is schmexy!

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to LunaM)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 4:57:17 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC


Well, not that I don't see us as friends, but honestly that's not why I don't jockey for position with you. I'd have a few questions about that concept. Questions like:
  • Position on which field?  Ummm... Soccer?
  • How is score being kept?  There's a score?
  • What's prize goes to the winner?  Loser buys the winner a drink.  (You can afford diet pepsi, right?)


I try not to "jockey" for position because in general I see it as beneath me. By definition such things are the mock-combat that I so dislike. When you and I met, there was no shared field, no prize to be won, and nobody keeping score. Ergo, any competition would've been just strutting and preening. Ewwwwwww.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Social Dominance - 4/11/2012 5:34:45 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I don't consider orientation when I am out and about, and I don't play the "who's kinky" game. I don't care if someone is dominant, submissive, or some combination based on the phases of the moon. I relate to people based on how they behave, and *possibly* who they are.

I have nothing to prove to other humans, especially total strangers. So far, it seems to work!

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Social Dominance - 4/12/2012 1:41:25 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		In any gathering of human beings, there is always a social hierarchy.

This includes - unsurprisingly - the online experience. For a long time I've been particularly amused by all the jostling that plays out in this space as it's essentially exactly the same kind of social interactions you're describing.

The D/s experience is essentially a one to one interaction in which an ordered mini-hierarchy is established based upon the inclinations of the participants. You'd think that might imply that subs choose their Dominant by looking further than their own personal interaction to examine his interactions with the rest of the world, however I get the distinct impression that many do not.

Consequently, someone identifying as Dominant doesn't imply they exert social dominance. They simply have a specifically negotiated role in an interaction. That's not to say they can't, don't or won't, merely that their role as Dominant doesn't mean they do or will.

Social dominance is essentially a product of the self. It's a consequence of verbal and non-verbal communication streams between an individual and those around him. Gestures, voice, tone, body language - at any moment, every human being is unconsciously forming beliefs about the people around them based upon unconscious perception of various cues.

Human beings automatically sort themselves into a social hierarchy based upon those cues. Some people mistake their particular role as a Dominant for a carte-blanche ticket to social dominance. In all likelihood, those people are deluded and about as dominant as tissue paper. In actuality, the self is always showing through and is virtually impossible to fake.

As I've said, the same thing occurs online. You see jostling for position by those claiming to be the most sadistic dominant in the room. It's all part of the online display people continually engage in. Body language cues are absent, so words are our only guide. One of the attractions of message boards is that it allows people - mostly men - to parade their personalities like peacocks. This is a far more effective strategy than simply emailing random women. The disconnect occurs when their ostensible personality is undermined by approval-seeking or easily manipulated behaviour, putting the lie to their personality display.

It's also worth remembering that many ethical statements or opinions about groups who possess power are usually an attempt by those without power to gain it. The feminist movement is largely a conversation in which a group without power - women - attempted to gain it through dialogue and framing male possession of power as an injustice. The same exercise is occurring with gay and transgender groups who are employing the same strategy. Ultimately though, very little of this is about ethics - it pretty much all devolves to a power struggle. Those without power seek it. Those who possess it, wish to keep it.

Ultimately, these games occur in any social group. The D/s equation changes nothing.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Social Dominance - 4/12/2012 1:57:37 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

My "consent" doesn't matter.

So now who's dominant here?
Look, I really had no desire to get into this, but if you're going to toss this out there, I'll tell you. She is. As I've mentioned before, you're a service top. She controls the relationship - that much is very clear from your posts and the fact that you can't even release her is clear evidence of such.

You'd better serve yourself by realising the reality of your situation instead of inventing complex explanations for why your particular brand of dominance is 'different'. It's not different, it's just not what you think it is.


_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 60
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