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Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 12:16:12 AM

Masticator

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I've seen similar threads covering or hinting at this topic but... I'd like to delve into the issue a little bit differently and I hope to get some really insightful, introspective responses.

When someone you're involved with lies to you, what do you do? Why do you do it? What actions do you take? What actions do you wish you'd done differently? What kinds of positive or negative outcomes have resulted?

I'm especially interested to know how this is approached at the different stages in the relationship. Getting to know them still? Been committed and officially involved? Or committed over the long term?

And does the nature (smaller lie vs. huge lie) of the lie affect your feelings? Does the root (insecurity vs. malicious deception) of the lie change how you respond?

When you lie to another person... what is your motivation? Your excuse? What was the outcome of those experiences? If you the lying was a habit, do you still participate in it?

Post #: 1

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 12:27:28 AM

Whenready

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It depends on the lie, the circumstances, and the consequences.

Everyone lies: "No officer I was only doing 30...." "No I don't know who ate the last chocolate" "No I'm not bored of shopping yet...".

"Social oil" lies are fine. "Hey great to see you.." "Yes the meal was nice". They do no harm and make life easier.

In a relationship, tell me the truth. I might not like it, but I still need to know. In play doubly so, especially with a new playmate.

If it's a whopper, or is a breach of trust, goodbye.

(in reply to Masticator)

Post #: 2

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 12:41:14 AM

Masticator

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Whenready,

As for the "goodbye" why?

And is this so firm as you imply?

I've found a lot of people give advice like "oh, if they're lying... hit the road. You can't recover trust again after destroying such trust like that." But this is not the advice they follow themselves. This is a fantasy they have of what a person is "supposed" to do.

I'm really trying to understand the motives of people's choices and the difference between what they say and do.

(in reply to Whenready)

Post #: 3

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 1:07:30 AM

Alecta

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It depends on what manner of lie it is and what the situation is.

I let my friends lie to me all the time. If they don't want to tell me, then it figures they don't want me to now about it for whatever reason, and so long as it's not about something I did that bothers them, I don't need to know, and I don't let myself ask. People apparently do not like it when I get all up in the business they don't want me in lol

Fresh subs I'm just meeting for the first time, I smile and let them keep lying, but chances are I won't call them back. There have been exceptions, it depends really in the end on how I felt about them, if it is worth taking a chance on the lie.

When a sub/slave I've relied on for a while lie, I let them know I know right away and demand an explanation, and if there is an issue behind the lie, I it down and try to solve it with them right away. It would bother me that they felt they couldn't tell me, but that's grounds for some firm reminder of what they should have done instead of lie, not automatic dismissal. Logically I agree with HouseRules that invoke automatic dismissal of a liar, but that really isn't the kind of tone I want in a long-term relationship. After all, if they are someone I've chosen to keep around for such an extended period, then the assumption is they are someone whom I trust to respect and honour me that such a rule would no longer be necessary, and only be very very unfortunate for the both of us should it be accidentally invoked.

The ones in the most "danger", shall we say, are the in-betweens, the ones who're new to me, who've just started, but haven't earned my trust yet. No lying, period. I am not intolerant to those who have differing opinions from me. There is nothing you can tell me that could shock me. I see no reason therefore for you to lie to me, except to make yourself seem more suitable for my needs than you actually are, but that's rather pointless too because the "Naked Man" has never worked on me and anyway, why would you lie about wanting to scrub my toilet with a toothbrush if you don't want to do it? It's not like that'd get you any closer to getting laid. Therefore, any lie shows disrespect, and your ass is out the door when that tiny disrespect meter's fills up. I won't take any argument about why the action that I felt was disrespectful from you were not disrespectful, either. To argue the point itself is disrespectful. I am, after all, the Domme. You don't get to tell me that my feelings are invalid. Hell, I don't even tell them that their feelings are invalid (just that I don't care, or that thinking/feeling that way is foolish, but that's not denying them!)

ETA:
I missed out the part of my response regarding it seems to be a universal rule not for people to lie...
Discounting the part where some people just instinctively don't like liars, there is also that factor that lying is habitual, and if you're lying about one thing, there's little to no guarantee that you're not lying about another, potentially more damaging thing. We tell ourselves that this should be the ideal where there is no lying because consciously this seems the ideal. In reality, it is not always necessarily important to all.

It is particularly poignant, I think, when dealing in BDSM to be truthful. A sub who makes a habit of lying about his headspace and intentions to his or her Dom/me is a liability because without his/her accurate feedback, the Dom/me has no other ways of monitoring his/her mental, physical and emotional health. It is also, obviously, a sign of trust, and for many Dom/mes, a large part of what is enjoyable about the dynamic is the sub/slave's trust in them and their ability to trust that slave/sub.

And, of course, being cautious with meeting strangers off the internet and all that jazz.

< Message edited by Alecta -- 4/13/2012 1:36:43 AM >

(in reply to Whenready)

Post #: 4

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 1:24:43 AM

PupMark

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Joined: 3/30/2012
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I dont think that there is a rule here. IF (this lie) THEN (this reaction). Depends on many many things.

What matters is the motivation behind the lie. Why they had to lie ? What they try to achieve/gain ?
Ego ? Insecurities ? They want to avoid punishment or humiliation ? What kind of lie ?
Some people lie just to avoid getting into a fight or to avoid things they dont wanna talk about.

(in reply to Alecta)

Post #: 5

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 2:51:38 AM

LadyPact

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Dang it. Second post that I lost today.

I'm actually a believer in the theory that lying is a learned behavior that we tend to pick up at our stage in development when we begin to understand cause, effect, and negative consequences. Since lying is learned at such an early age, it can be difficult for some people to unlearn the habit. One of the best methods that I have seen work is to make the habit of lying more uncomfortable via negative consequences. Have the person go back, admit their lie, and tell the truth about whatever the situation was about. As people do this, they start making more conscientious choices about telling the truth in the first place.

Between MP and Myself, there are definitely lies that just aren't acceptable. For example, we are poly, but our agreement on the matter is that will we tell the truth about other relationships. That is a deal killer. We set up our house rules that way and it works for us. We've worked so hard on trying to maintain honesty between us so it would be kind of silly to ditch it over something small.

_____________________________

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(in reply to PupMark)

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 2:55:20 AM

littlecherie

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I tell him that I'm upset, and ask what happened, and why. We then go from there dependant on the answer.

_____________________________

LIGHTS
(hellionsLight)

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(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 7

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 3:35:21 AM

Whenready

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Joined: 3/5/2009
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Whenready,
As for the "goodbye" why?
And is this so firm as you imply?
I've found a lot of people give advice like "oh, if they're lying... hit the road. You can't recover trust again after destroying such trust like that." But this is not the advice they follow themselves. This is a fantasy they have of what a person is "supposed" to do.
I'm really trying to understand the motives of people's choices and the difference between what they say and do.

To the OP: When it's a whopper or a trust breach, yes. I've walked before, in those circumstances.

(in reply to littlecherie)

Post #: 8

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 3:49:29 AM

ProlificNeeds

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Joined: 5/19/2007
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FR~

It depends on the degree of lie, who ended up hurt by it, and the intention behind it.
I always prefere truth over lies even if it's not always comfortable. I find the 'social oil' type to be irritating even. I'd rather hear that they didn't like my cooking or that they are NOT doing okay today, then the ingrained automatic answers.

When it comes to relationships though, people lie for two reasons, to protect themselves, or someone else. Neither motive is bad but if it's to evade consequences that are justly deserved, then it gets unpleasent.

One lie alone is never the deal breaker though, the deal breaker is really often the act that the lie concealed. The fact they lied about it only mkes the act more henious. I've never broken up over a lie, but I have broken up over finding out what the lies were concealing.

(in reply to Whenready)

Post #: 9

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 3:51:50 AM

SinFix

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Joined: 4/1/2011
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Great topic, this has been on my mind lately..
For me I work hard at not telling any lies, I tell the truth whether it is something they want to hear or not. Now I'm not a bitch about it or mean, I just tell them the truth.
Now I have talked to a lot of guys on different sites and almost every one of them has told me a lie. Not even sure why they would lie about some of the things that they have, but I have always called them out on it and questioned them. Even when I have stated upfront and honestly that I would prefer the blunt truth over anything else. I am wondering if some of it is that it is online, text, or im that makes it easier for them to tell the lie and that if they were face-to-face with me they wouldn't lie.

(in reply to littlecherie)

Post #: 10

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 4:21:25 AM

chelita30

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Joined: 11/13/2011
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I've just recently discovered a concept called Radical Honesty through a friend. We are learning the ideas in a small group and have all committed to tell each other the truth. At all times. We lie all the time, often just because it is socially acceptable to do so. We also lie by omission. As LadyPact said, this behaviour is ingrained in us from very young and it takes work to unlearn it. The basic idea is that by always telling the truth we will develop more intimate relationships with those around us. When the truth causes offence, that is ok, the conversation needs to be worked through to its conclusion. I'm not a proponent of Radical Honesty, yet, but I am curious and going to give it a go within the safety of a small group to begin with.

A google search will bring up more info for anyone interested, and here is a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Honesty-Transform-Telling-Truth/dp/0970693842/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334315791&sr=8-1

_____________________________

"When Christian Grey "rips through" Anastasia's virginity, she actually says "Argh!" like Jon finding out that Garfield has once again shredded the curtains"

(in reply to SinFix)

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 4:57:50 AM

sunshinemiss

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Lying is an important stage of development in children. It is part of how they realize differentiation. In many cultures telling lies is polite - whether lies of omission or commission. The amount of lies is dependent on the culture. Many eastern cultures are much less confrontational and the people would be shocked to hear the truth. Sometimes people need to lie to protect themselves from real (or imagined) demons. Finally, many people lie to themselves.

Truth happens at many different levels. Making a solid declaration of possible response to a theoretical experience is pretty darned difficult for a lot of us.

Personally I try to be honest and will often deflect answering questions that I believe my answer will harm someone. Just yesterday one of my good friends asked me what I thought of her new skirt. It is one of those denim ones - the kind that they rub out some of the color so you have a white / brown / grey strip on the legs. I think they look absolutely ridiculous and lazy. If you want to do some "wearing out" of jeans, at least make it look a LITTLE natural! So my answer to her was that her legs looked great! (Because they did).

I think what's important is knowing one's own comfort level with regards to honesty and "lies".

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to chelita30)

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 5:03:24 AM

RaspberryLemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chelita30
The basic idea is that by always telling the truth we will develop more intimate relationships with those around us. When the truth causes offence, that is ok, the conversation needs to be worked through to its conclusion.

This is EXACTLY how I feel about honesty. Without complete transparency, you are not truly allowing the other person to know you wholly and entirely. Even when there are just simple, small lies...what it means is that there are still barriers between each other.

That is why, in my relationship, lying to each other is never under any circumstances acceptable.

As for what we'd do if it happened...well, if my Master lied to me I'd be absolutely devastated. I'd be emotionally crushed and I'd have a hard time trusting him after that--which is pretty damn detrimental given the nature of our relationship. I'd be incredibly upset, but depending on what type of lie it was--what it was about, and what its intentions were, I don't think I'd try to facilitate an end to our relationship unless it was very, very serious or something else horrible (what the lie was about?) had happened. And it'd have to be really, really, really horrible for me to give up.

Realistically, I'd probably have a hard time considering terminating our relationship even for things I'd like to currently think would make that the only option. I simply love him too much to give up. I do understand this mindset and dedication potentially could end badly for me--he could put me in a horrible and unhealthy spot, do things that would harm my psych beyond repair, put me in a perpetual state of misery, and I'd still stick with it out of loyalty. But I put myself in this position willingly: Luckily for me, this is where trust comes in--he is not the sort of man that would do that to me, and I believe in that wholeheartedly. I do not feel I have to worry about that ever happening to me. This no-reservations way of thinking may seem rash, but it's exactly the sort of intensity necessary to create and sustain the bond that we both strive for. I'm willing to accept whatever consequences come of it.

If I lied to him... I can't really see a circumstance where I ever would to be honest. And frankly I'm not sure what he'd do. I'm sure it would depend on the severity of the lie and its intentions, but even for the smallest thing I'm sure his reaction would be severe. I have no right to deny him parts of myself, and that's exactly what lying to him is.

(in reply to chelita30)

Post #: 13

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 5:15:21 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Great topic, so ty Masticator.

As House says, "*Everybody* lies."

And I agree. Though we have been conditioned to lie since birth, I am firmly of the opinion that not all lies are equal.

From ProlificNeeds: It depends on the degree of lie, who ended up hurt by it, and the intention behind it.

If the intention is to cover up unacceptable behavior (cheating, or otherwise engaging in a deal breaker), then no, you can't sanction the lie by tolerating it.

When I've had to decide what to do about lying, I have always taken into account the person's past history. Do they have a history of lying? Or is this unusual behavior?

Again, *intent* is quite crucial.

I demand a strong degree of honesty in my personal relationships and I've found most people I encounter are incapable of adhering to this standard. Despite this I would not be a proponent of radical honesty.

Very few people can actually overcome their social conditioning and be 100% honest, myself included.

_____________________________

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 5:15:38 AM

kalikshama

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I've been friends with two people I now consider pathological liars - "falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime."

Since there was usually no discernible point to their lies, it took me a while to figure out what was going on, and end the friendships, especially with MJ, as I was only 16 when we met.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica

Pathological liars

Lying is the act of making a false statement.[4] Most people do so out of fear.[5] Pathological lying is considered a mental illness, because it takes over rational judgement and progresses into the fantasy world and back.[6]

Excessive lying is a common symptom of several mental illnesses. For instance people who suffer from antisocial personality disorder use lying to benefit from others. Some individuals with borderline personality disorder lie for attention by claiming they’ve been treated poorly.[7] Pathological lying, on the other hand, can be described as an addiction to lying. It is when an individual consistently lies for no personal gain. The lies are commonly transparent and often seem rather pointless.[8]

There are many consequences of being a pathological liar. Due to lack of trust, most pathological liar's relationships and friendships fail

----------

After the fact, I also suspected MJ of Munchausen syndrome by proxy/ Fabricated or Induced Illness by Carers, as her kids always got sick when her boyfriend left her and well after he returned, drawn back in due to the medical emergency. The mysterious illnesses ended when he resigned himself to a life with her and last I heard, all were alive and well, if unhappy.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 4/13/2012 5:16:13 AM >

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 5:51:19 AM

Pyramus

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Why, oh why, does my soul mate lie?

The truth it is I seek, or die!

He hath no qualms about the social ties.

Hello it is ... as for the "goodbye" why?

And is this so firm as you imply?

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 16

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 6:14:07 AM

FrostedFlake

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From: Centralia, Washington
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It is a tough question you are asking. And you are clear that you don't want the answer to the problem in front of you, because we don't know what it is. So you want, general ideas. Let me toss this onto the fire.

There is a world of difference between, "I'm sorry I ate half the cake" and "I'm sorry I slept with ...the mailman ... your sister ...Mom.

I'm pretty sure we are not talking about Mom. So I'll let that go. And I'm not sure if I am more concerned about Sis, or 'just anyone passing by'. But either is enough that there is no question, so I am guessing we aren't talking about that, either. And it's a long way from here back to the cake, and I don't want to abuse the reader, so I will just get to the point.

Are we talking about one lie, or two?

I mean, is he telling the truth when he is saying he's sorry?

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to Pyramus)

Post #: 17

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 7:09:51 AM

Greta75

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When I first meet someone online, I am not honest about my real name, where I stay, where I work, private information, I guess that is lying. But it's for safety and security reasons.
Once trust is establish, then hopefully total honesty can begin.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 18

RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 8:31:47 AM

DesFIP

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It depends on why they lie. If you aren't someone it is safe to tell the truth to, then get accustomed to being lied to.
If I get screamed at because I left the milk on the counter, expect me to lie about it and replace it before you can notice it. Because too many people claim they want honesty and open communication but respond to it with anything but a calm acceptance. Shoot the messenger appears to be the default option for most people I know. And personally, I'm not volunteering to be shot.

But I told him this upfront, that for me to be honest, he has to back up his words. Which means he has to accept that he isn;t perfect, that he does make mistakes, and that sometimes he is going to need to sincerely apologize and make changes, just like me. Because I won't accept less than this in someone I'm turning control of myself over to. And if in fact he isn't capable of doing all those things he promised, then I would have no difficulty in lying until I was out of the relationship. Because my safety comes first, physical, mental and emotional.

So, OP, do you shoot the messenger or do you make it safe for them to tell you the truth?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

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RE: Lying: What to do when it happens? - 4/13/2012 8:36:38 AM

JeffBC

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It's all going to be situational. I don't make hard and fast rules about these things. I can tell you that "toss her to the curb" is not my go to choice for anything. And yes, it sure as heck matters to me that we've been together for 17 years. I'm invested now.

In general, I don't have an honor fetish... or an honesty one.. or <insert virtuous word here>. I expect my partner to be human.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 4/13/2012 8:40:00 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Masticator)

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