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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 5:24:06 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Well, don't even get me started on the whole disco thing. There were plenty of movements that started during the '70s, but I don't think you could pick out any one of them as being definitive for the decade (as you say). The whole "whiney songwriter" thing goes back to at least the '60s, for instance, but people still tend to saddle Joni Mitchell and James Taylor with that one. If there was a uniquely '70s movement in music, I'd have said glam rock got the closest, and that was over and done with in three or four years, though you could make a case for jazz fusion and prog as well.

Don't think you could make a case for jazz fusion or prog being uniquely 70's movements. There were antecedents but I reckon Jazz fusion was pretty much established with Miles Davis' "In a Silent Way" back in 1969. Similarly King Crimson's "In the Court of the Crimson King" for prog-rock the same year. Glam rock is very 70's but it was only a fairly fleeting movement that only emerged in 1971 with Mark Bolan, and pretty much died by the end of 1974.

For myself broad hard rock/heavy rock, which almost always included proggy elements defined the 1970's. It didn't quite emerge then but found its greatest expression at the time, and achieved massive success that would never really happen again except maybe briefly in the early 90's with Grunge. I mean in what other decade could a band like Led Zeppelin get eight consecutive number ones, and it is this music that led to the big reaction of punk, which largely defined the end part of that decade?



< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/15/2012 5:42:02 AM >

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 6:07:13 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Led Zeppellin never put out any singles on this side of the pond.

Jazz fusion to me is more white boys playing watered down Miles Davis, so any albums before Zawinuul and Shorter left Davis' band don't really make it. All of what are now seen as the defining fusion bands (Mahabvishnu, Weather Report, Zappa's tiresomely dull mid '70s nonsense, Pat Metheny and the like) were '70s outfits, and really, if you're going to drag Miles into that Bitches Brew works a lot better as a ground zero than In A Silent Way, which makes far less concessions to rock music.

Prog is harder to tie down, and there's a lot of prog records that were released before In The Court Of The Crimson King (whatever Toyah's other half now claims). As you say, it's pretty inarguable that prog is either pretentious metal (just listen to Sabbath Bloody Sabbath or the Quatermass album), or metal is dumbed down prog. The borders between the two are very porous.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 6:19:31 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Led Zeppellin never put out any singles on this side of the pond.

I was talking about their albums. I think only Abba matched that record although for all I know it may have been beaten in recent years.

quote:


Jazz fusion to me is more white boys playing watered down Miles Davis, so any albums before Zawinuul and Shorter left Davis' band don't really make it. All of what are now seen as the defining fusion bands (Mahabvishnu, Weather Report, Zappa's tiresomely dull mid '70s nonsense, Pat Metheny and the like) were '70s outfits, and really, if you're going to drag Miles into that Bitches Brew works a lot better as a ground zero than In A Silent Way, which makes far less concessions to rock music.

Bitches Brew does take it further but "In a Silent Way" is clearly jazz fusion. I agree it took off in the 1970's but it does have its origins as a musical form in the 1960's.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 7:49:34 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Arguably, but my own feeling is that any Miles Davis album* is jazz, however much the fusion boys might want to co-opt it.

*(Even Agharta)

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:18:23 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Arguably, but my own feeling is that any Miles Davis album* is jazz, however much the fusion boys might want to co-opt it.

*(Even Agharta)



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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:19:58 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Given that fusion is a subset of jazz, that's a given.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:23:04 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Given that fusion is a subset of jazz, that's a given.

Quite. I think Davis deserves a a lot of credit for developing fusion even if a lot of it turned out to be shit in the hands of lesser musicians.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:26:15 AM   
Baroana


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Status: offline 		The Civil War, the Crusades, Abel and Cain... I think "polarisation" has been around for a while.

Where does the apposite part come in?

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:27:52 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

The Civil War, the Crusades, Abel and Cain... I think "polarisation" has been around for a while.

Where does the apposite part come in?



The title was probably a typo or poor usage and I imagine should have been "polar opposites."

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 10:50:49 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Given that fusion is a subset of jazz, that's a given.

Quite. I think Davis deserves a a lot of credit for developing fusion even if a lot of it turned out to be shit in the hands of lesser musicians.

But since it spawned Weather Report, all is forgiven.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 11:42:50 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

Weather Report


Which reminds me of the early days of when the then 'easy listening' FM band started to provide the first of what were eventually called 'alternative radio' stations. That's where I first heard the above band and many others not given exposure else wise. Many stations in the past played The Star Spangled Banner at sign-off, and the alt. FM station in my town did likewise, with Hendrix's Woodstock version.

These stations were truly independent, sometimes in common ownership with one or two other local/regional stations.

Eventually of course these were bought out by large regional or national airwaves conglomerates. Two guesses as to which decade that came about.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/15/2012 11:44:33 AM >

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 12:55:29 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Given that fusion is a subset of jazz, that's a given.

Quite. I think Davis deserves a a lot of credit for developing fusion even if a lot of it turned out to be shit in the hands of lesser musicians.

But since it spawned Weather Report, all is forgiven.

Weather Report are a big part of the problem with fusion, sadly. Apart from the two albums with Jaco Pastorius, they're pretty bloody dreadful.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:07:16 PM   
ResidentSadist


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Status: offline 		Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity.
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I think that is the defining between what makes for good tasteful fusion and what is just more crap in muddled heap of undeterminable, tasteless noise.



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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:09:35 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		It's a nice line, but I'm not sure it applies to any fusion at all: that's all the latter. Hell, the motto for most of that stuff seems to be "we can play this stuff and you can't", doesn't it?

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:37:49 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Given that fusion is a subset of jazz, that's a given.

Quite. I think Davis deserves a a lot of credit for developing fusion even if a lot of it turned out to be shit in the hands of lesser musicians.

But since it spawned Weather Report, all is forgiven.

Liked the odd bit of Weather Report although they came to sort of represent the pyrotechnical excesses of fusion IMO. Having said that there were some great European jazz fusion outfits - I'm thinking of the likes of Terje Rypdal and some of those dudes on ECM who went toward a harsh minimalist aesthetic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_evntg86yiU

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:43:53 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
quote:

Weather Report

Which reminds me of the early days of when the then 'easy listening' FM band started to provide the first of what were eventually called 'alternative radio' stations. That's where I first heard the above band and many others not given exposure else wise. Many stations in the past played The Star Spangled Banner at sign-off, and the alt. FM station in my town did likewise, with Hendrix's Woodstock version.

These stations were truly independent, sometimes in common ownership with one or two other local/regional stations.

Eventually of course these were bought out by large regional or national airwaves conglomerates. Two guesses as to which decade that came about.

The demon decade no doubt.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:52:28 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Weather Report although they came to sort of represent the pyrotechnical excesses of fusion


Not even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F02mBkBoMQw

There are, though, a long list of "pyrotechnical excesses" in fusion bands.

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 1:57:53 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Their thing was more underplaying, if anything. No solos, for a start...

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/15/2012 2:07:41 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

Weather Report although they came to sort of represent the pyrotechnical excesses of fusion

Not even close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F02mBkBoMQw

There are, though, a long list of "pyrotechnical excesses" in fusion bands.

Not all their stuff was like that for sure but they were what some might call a might bit "indulgent"...

_____________________________

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RE: Polar Apposite? - 4/16/2012 8:35:05 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Apposite?


The title was probably a typo or poor usage and I imagine should have been 'polar opposites"



..it was quite deliberate.

Polar Apposite?

Is it meet and proper for things to be very, very far from each other?

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