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Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/13/2012 11:38:47 PM   
tweakabelle


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Altruism is defined as "disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others" by the Oxford Dictionary. Many of us would, I suspect, feel altruism has a positive meaning - it is a quality that we admire in people, it is something we see as desirable. Some would even go so far as to suggest that altruism is a basic force for good inherent in human nature, found at the heart of human civilisation and culture.

The author Ayn Rand takes a very different view:
"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization. ".- Ayn Rand, Interview in Playboy Magazine, 196

Is altruism a force for good or " poison of death in the blood of Western civilization', or perhaps something else? Is it relevant or obsolete in today's world? What do you think?

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 12:32:29 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The author Ayn Rand takes a very different view:
"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization... "

What do you think?

Well for starters, I think it would be more accurate to say that "altruism is the moral excuse of all collectivism."

K.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 12:32:44 AM   
farglebargle


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Ayn Rand is Karl Marx with a set of tits.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 1:26:05 AM   
Edwynn


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Well, I was hoping for a discussion of altruism on its own, but ...

I'm not sure where the Oxford came up with this somewhat insistent "disinterested and selfless" part. It seems to exclude the evolutionary aspect of social behavior, but then maybe that was their intent, to further isolate and confine one specific behavior and consider it apart from wherever it may  derive.

Then again I do understand that limitation somewhat, as they seem to focus on the "giving from afar," such as donating to charity, etc. In any case I'm not one who sees it as limited to that, or necessarily as something to greatly admire. Once admiration comes into it then we do not know the motivation of someone's altruism, and the "selfless and disinterested" aspect kind of goes out the window. Otherwise, it is something someone does of their own volition, like many other things. Most of us have an inclination to help out in some manner or another, and I'm not sure if one way is to be measured against another way in some ranking of greater or lesser esteem. Some people's generosity or other way of helping is not as obvious or conspicuous as other displays of contribution. Some people write fat checks to a well known charity, then refuse to lend their brother a twenty, or a give a non-threatening polite panhandler a dollar. Some go work in a village in Africa or South America for ten years.

I agree that some aspect of altruism is inherent in human nature, but there are other competing interests as well that are part of society. I could consider it a measure of social health, but not to the extent that more and more altruism means successively greater social health, or that some perceived lessening at a given time means we are on the down slide.

In any case, these latter years I am more interested and focused on the question of how the situation arises where more altruism is needed to counteract increasingly deteriorating social and economic conditions. The argument has been made that to some extent altruism, however unintentionally, merely supports or allows continuation of an otherwise non-sustainable societal model, that being an admittedly 1789ish take on things.

More to say on it at some point (with greater clarity, I hope) but my mind is needing rest from it directly.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/14/2012 1:30:42 AM >

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:05:55 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

Is altruism a force for good or " poison of death in the blood of Western civilization', or perhaps something else? Is it relevant or obsolete in today's world? What do you think?


I see altruism as one of the parameters of human mind ("in the blood", as you say). The actual human behavior is a complex expression of many parameters and it is a result of personal development inevitably tied to a society. I am creationist in this regard; the parameters are given, not evolved. The personal development can be better described with the term adaptation. There are cases of "true altruism", but generally, it can be seen in combination with other behavioral traits and the real motives are sometimes questioned.
Altruism is to a great extent irrational. Is it good or bad perhaps can not be directly answered. Good for whom? Collectivism, in my view, does not have much to do with altruism. The goal of collectivism is common good.
Self development, understanding by a person his own psychology in today's society is deficient and they do not fully compensate  freedom and associated chaos. In the past, societies regulated the behavior to a much greater extent. In this regard today altruism and other irrational traits gain actually more importance than before. Criminal organizations that flourish (including gang of 535) for example very successfully exploit this phenomenon. Also, murder suicides have often strong altruistic roots.


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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:13:31 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization. ".- Ayn Rand, Interview in Playboy Magazine, 196


Hi Tweaks :-) Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's complete bollocks, isn't it?

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:13:50 AM   
PatrickG38


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Why would anyone care what a tacky third rate novelist thinks?

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:26:31 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Why would anyone care what a tacky third rate novelist thinks?


Indeed. I was astonished to see how 'big' Ayn Rand is the other side of the Atlantic. I did some reading and fairly rapidly came to the conclusion that she was a fruitcake.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:35:58 AM   
SilverBoat


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Ayn Rand? Philosopher? Commenting on Altruism?

Nah, she was a pseudo-intellectual con-artiste, a psychopathic liar, and a socio-economic parasite, the epitome of what her drearily verbose writing contrived to villify as the mortal enemies of the truly enlightened superior beings, such as herself.

In total, she's probably gotten more people killed less obvioiusly than Manson or Rasputin, but that's the category in which she belongs: glibly manipulative sociopaths.

...

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 5:39:10 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Why would anyone care what a tacky third rate novelist thinks?



My ex boss seemed to think she was some kind of god. He was constantly quoting her and trying to get everyone to read her books. I would ask him about her, but he is sitting in a federal prison for being a pedo and we don't talk anymore.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 6:05:21 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

My ex boss seemed to think she was some kind of god. He was constantly quoting her and trying to get everyone to read her books. I would ask him about her, but he is sitting in a federal prison for being a pedo and we don't talk anymore.


Superb.


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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 6:06:43 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Altruism is defined as "disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others" by the Oxford Dictionary. Many of us would, I suspect, feel altruism has a positive meaning - it is a quality that we admire in people, it is something we see as desirable. Some would even go so far as to suggest that altruism is a basic force for good inherent in human nature, found at the heart of human civilisation and culture.

The author Ayn Rand takes a very different view:
"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization. ".- Ayn Rand, Interview in Playboy Magazine, 196

Is altruism a force for good or " poison of death in the blood of Western civilization', or perhaps something else? Is it relevant or obsolete in today's world? What do you think?

The problem you and Rand posit is a false dichotomy.

The best, sustainable, most satisfying approaches serve both the interests of the individual and the interests of others. They are not separate, at least not in the long term.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 9:13:50 AM   
Edwynn


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I don't know how this came about.

It was asked in another thread if a separate thread on altruism would be warranted and I answered in the affirmative. It appears I misunderstood the original question, else I would not have so voted.

Anyways, I think I might start a discussion on racial equality and seek thoughtful insights on that question.

So of course I am going to title the thread; "George Wallace and racial equality."






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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:05:57 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

The problem you and Rand posit is a false dichotomy.


You may well be correct here MM. I was merely presenting two conflicting views on what altruism may be.

I did hope that those who find Rand's perspective compelling might be persuaded to tell us why they find this view so interesting. For myself, I tend to think that all human civilisation can be seen collectivism of one sort or another - so the point of Rand's criticism is far from immediately clear to me. It seems a bit like criticising water for being wet



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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:34:28 AM   
erieangel


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My boss has told me repeatedly in recent weeks that "I'm too generous". Unlike most people who work at my agency, I seldom turn off my work cell and some of my clients have the number of my personal cell. I have been known to stay on the phone for an hour or more with a client who just needed to talk late at night. When we ended up housing estranged brothers whose father died a week after the younger brother moved in, I spent the night with them. If somebody doesn't contribute his share of grocery money, I will usually pitch in for some food. I've paid to repair cut cable lines, bought a DVD player, picked up storage bowls, coffee mugs and flatware (seems that type of stuff is constantly getting broken or lost).

But if's not just at work. If somebody on the street asks me a $1 for something to eat, I will offer to take them for a meal, or direct them the nearest soup kitchen for a free meal, but as a rule I do not hand out money to strangers. I always have handfuls of change in the bottom of my purse, and it always finds its way into some fundraising bucket or basket.

In truth I can't afford to be as generous as I am. OTOH, if I know that somebody is going hungry while I am eating half decently, I feel like crap. So I would say that my altruism isn't always for the sake of others, but because it helps me to feel good.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:36:27 AM   
Musicmystery


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Anything in either direction is unsustainable long term.

All good effort is for mutual benefit.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:36:55 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Altruism is defined as "disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others" by the Oxford Dictionary. Many of us would, I suspect, feel altruism has a positive meaning - it is a quality that we admire in people, it is something we see as desirable. Some would even go so far as to suggest that altruism is a basic force for good inherent in human nature, found at the heart of human civilisation and culture.

The author Ayn Rand takes a very different view:
"Altruism is a moral system which holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the sole justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, value and virtue. Altruism is the moral base of collectivism, of all dictatorships...Altruism is the poison of death in the blood of Western civilization. ".- Ayn Rand, Interview in Playboy Magazine, 196

Is altruism a force for good or " poison of death in the blood of Western civilization', or perhaps something else? Is it relevant or obsolete in today's world? What do you think?

Altruism is both critical and central to human social networks and institutions, from marriage, to child-rearing, to economics and defense, but it is seldom selfless - see reciprocal altruism.

As usual with righty philosophy, they define problems in such a way as to make them seem like something they aren't, and most of their rants tend to be about things that are simply pure abstractions with no empirical basis in reality.

It's a different model, and it yields different data in terms of perceptions of cause and effect w/respect to specific problems, how those problems are solved, and the resulting outcomes of those solutions.

i.e., if all problems are someones fault which a basic assumption of cuase and effect, then punishing those at fault should prevent that from recurring.

The fact that this never seems to work never seems to result in any re-evaluation of the model, rather it typically leads to increasingly Draconian levels of punishment, which intensifies the underlying problem in a vicious cycle.

Often, an authoritarian benefits form this, i.e., if a significant amount of tax revenue is devoted to law enforcement, it's in the vested interest of anyone who profits from that to perpetuate or even intensify the problem of crime - crime and law enforcement form a distinct economy within the larger economy, and they are often intertwined, it's not a just a hypothesis there are several rather large and extensive studies on the situation.

For example, those who are economically marginalized have a greater incentive to steal in order to increase their income, but they cannot profit from theft without market for stolen goods, and the "fence" is often a member of the legitimate business community, who acts as both redistributer of stolen property and money launderer, and he may have police on the payroll in order to perpetuate the value chain.

Similarly, street level drug dealers are seldom in the business of importing the drugs, which is often the province of ostensibly legitimate business networks including both importers in the private sector and law enforcement, customs, border patrol, etc.

Lets say the problem/solution set here from an authoritarian viewpoint is: "get people to stop doing drugs by punishing them".

There is so much money involved in that particular trade, that corruption in the border patrol is thought to be so widespread as to be practically ubiquitous, google it if you don't believe me.

The result, is it really doesn't matter how many street dealer of users you incarcerate, you just make room for more dealers and users in a never ending stream, a closed loop economic system subsidized by tax revenues.

The altruistic thing here would be to de-criminalize drugs, and spend some of the money going to law enforcement and incarceration on treatment of those who cannot control their addictions, re-education so they can get and hold legitimate jobs, etc., which while seemingly altruistic, has the resulting outcome of enabling individuals to transition to doing useful work and generating tax revenues, thus in the end, everyone actually benefits, and the groups as a whole: economic and social institutions are all strengthened rather than weakened.

From a right wing POV however, it's a very simplistic binary mytheme: police good, drugs bad, bad is punished, good is rewarded, and outreach element here seems highly altruistic - you rewarding these bad people for doing bad things, spending their tax money on drug users, etc., and because of the whole punishment paradigm, they can't get past that to see the potential benefits.

Meanwhile, the cycle is corrupting the judicial and law enforcement system, and enriching the individuals who perpetuate it - it's revolving door because we don't have the room to incarcerate everyone who commits the victimless crime of altering their consciousness with chemical substances, or we have to release violent criminals to make room for them.

Or, of course, build more jails, and turn them into profit centers, that feeds on a steady diet of tax revenues and never even remotely comes close to solving the problem, and in fact has a vested interest in perpetuating and even exacerbating it.

And all kinds of other business are drawn into that - arms dealers selling to both sides for example, and every time there is gang war and bunch of gets get killed in some spectacular firefight (using weapons channeled into the underground economy through ostensibly legitimate sources), gun sales increase, more money is channeled into law enforcement and the penal system, everybody wins except the cops and the criminals who have few or no alternatives, and in fact the majority of street cops are all for decriminalization if they haven't been corrupted by the value chain already - the whole thing is very obvious from the street level.

Who really wins here? Politicians and bureaucrats who benefit from looking like they're doing something, if not from actually getting kickbacks from the fences, gun dealers and importers who are profiting far above and beyond anything they could ever hope to attain though legitimate business.

And those are the people who aren't "criminals"!

The truth is, in the criminal community itself, crime doesn't pay all that well, it's a lot of work and risk for very little return, they're not only being exploited for labor, but their status a "threat" is exploited for even greater profits (tax revenue streams, and market expansion/increased sales of guns, for example) by the much more lucrative industries that service it.

Now, who pays for it? Taxpayers and insurance companies mostly.

You see from right wing POV, the individual is always responsible for their actions, correct? And it's true, one is responsible for ones actions, but people behave differently when they're pushed to the wall, under stress, even average, law abiding and well meaning people do horrendous things, and looking at it as a historical/statistical problem, one can confident;y predict that under certain conditions of economic stress, a certain percentage of people will opt out of the legitimate economy, particularly if it doesn't even cover their sustenance needs, let alone offer them any social mobility, and will compensate with an underground economy, they have responsibilities to themselves and their families that outweigh any responsibilities to a system that does not offer them or their families anything in return, it's really sound basic economic thinking, the orthodox economy has to invest in them and share in the returns if it wants them to participate.

It's a statistical economic phenomena, in all of recorded history it has never not worked that way, and never will not work that way, and bad money crowds out good, another economic truism, meaning that far from crushing the underground economy, it will simply end up co-opting and corrupting the aboveground economy.

If your values system boils down to "money talks", then this should come as no particular surprise or shock to you.

If not, you could save yourself a lot of money by being a little more openly altruistic.

Because as it stands, you're being one hell of a selfless altruist to a lot of criminal enterprises, and getting not a goddamn thing in return.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:38:13 AM   
Yachtie


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Real altruism (as distinguished from perfect) shows its face in odd ways and situations. Just guessing here that soldiers on the battlefield probably experience a greater share of it. Audie Murphy and Alvin York come to mind. But I posit they are the exception to the rule. George Washington was offered the Crown which he denounced. He then went on to put down the whiskey rebellion.

Altruism as a basis for society is a perfect ideal suited for a perfect world which does not exist. Unfortunately its counterpart does exist in both definition and reality, and to a much greater extent. I'd say that is a distinction Rand is getting at. It's not that collectivism does not work under all circumstances, but that its success diminishes as size increases. The Israeli Kibbutz and the nuclear family is one form of success, whereas the collectivist activities of the original settlers in the US is one of failure till abandoned and the settlers flourished (thus we have Thanksgiving) .

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:47:24 AM   
xssve


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Here's a good one.

http://www.captainsjournal.com/2011/09/20/massive-corruption-in-the-u-s-border-patrol/

Rand worldview is overly simplistic, economic activity simply does not and cannot exist in a vacuum, it's a social activity.

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RE: Ayn Rand and altruism - 4/14/2012 10:54:03 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Rand worldview is overly simplistic, economic activity simply does not and cannot exist in a vacuum, it's a social activity.


Concerning your statement only - Yes, it is a social activity. But should it be controlled as collectivist? Two people can make a deal. That's social. Groups of people can make deals. That's social too. But what happens when the deal is made for them by others (collectivist) not directly party to the deal in the first place?





< Message edited by Yachtie -- 4/14/2012 10:56:56 AM >


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