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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/14/2012 11:31:38 PM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		It is amusing to see the shrieks of self-righteous outrage from 'pro-life' quarters when their arrogant assumption of the moral high ground is challenged.

Can one be a devout Christian and be pro-choice? My mother, who was a sincere committed Catholic to her last breathe, found a way of uniting these two positions. It was the only major disagreement she ever had with Catholic dogma.

My understanding of Christian doctrine is that believers are required to display love and forgiveness towards those who 'sin'. The attitude of many of the religiously-motivated 'pro-life' campaigners leaves a lot to be desired in this respect. It's another of the many selective self serving applications of Christian principles one sees coming from more conservative right wing Christians, who seem uninterested in loving and forgiving others, (as their religion demands) preferring instead to judge them mercilessly (which their religion forbids).

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 4:16:18 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The soul may be “atomic” and “immutable” but even according to your definition (Catholic doctrine on souls is a very complex derivation on ancient and Medieval philosophy), a soul could still be replicated,


You don't know what the words "atomic" and "immutable" mean obviously. Go use a dictionary.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Then why don't you respect the "Free Will" of those who choose to use birth control or have an abortion?

For those that accept the notion or existence of free-will, it doesn't automatically follow that they will implicitely accept actions as a consequence of this aspect of reality. If they did then it would seem that they would have no right to object to any expression of free will, which would include murder or genocide.


Hey, don't get on my case. I didn't bring "Free Will" into the discussion. An Anti-Family-Planner did when I cornered them with "If your crazy god knows that there needs to be two souls and installs two ( or installs the special 'twin' soul ) , why does your crazy god install souls in miscarriages and abortions?"

And you offer that your crazy god does this as a test, to see if you'll obey him rather than actually having Free Will?

Crazy.

Of course, if your crazy god is so powerful, he'd already know whether you'd fail his tests. Which given the downside of Adolph Hitler and Stalin "failing your crazy god's tests" argues pretty well against that.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/15/2012 4:18:53 AM >

_____________________________

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 4:57:57 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The soul may be “atomic” and “immutable” but even according to your definition (Catholic doctrine on souls is a very complex derivation on ancient and Medieval philosophy), a soul could still be replicated,

You don't know what the words "atomic" and "immutable" mean obviously. Go use a dictionary.

I suggest you use the dictionary Fargey boy. "Atomised" in this context simply means discrete, cannot be split into its constituents. "Immutable" means its character cannot be altered. Thus it is still entirely possible to replicate, according to your definition.

quote:

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Then why don't you respect the "Free Will" of those who choose to use birth control or have an abortion?

For those that accept the notion or existence of free-will, it doesn't automatically follow that they will implicitely accept actions as a consequence of this aspect of reality. If they did then it would seem that they would have no right to object to any expression of free will, which would include murder or genocide.

Hey, don't get on my case. I didn't bring "Free Will" into the discussion. An Anti-Family-Planner did when I cornered them with "If your crazy god knows that there needs to be two souls and installs two ( or installs the special 'twin' soul ) , why does your crazy god install souls in miscarriages and abortions?"

Fargey, offering examples of miscarriages acting naturally is not an argument against the "pro-life" stance. The issue of intentionality, which is a central aspect of morality, does not come into the matter with regard to miscarriages. It is simply a function of nature. Miscarriages are often non-viable whilst those that are aborted very often are.

quote:


And you offer that your crazy god does this as a test, to see if you'll obey him rather than actually having Free Will?

Crazy.

Fargey, firstly I'm not religious being a lapsed Katlik - I'm simply arguing the issue out, and secondly your G[o]d also has this "its all a test of faith" BS as well. Remember Job?

quote:


Of course, if your crazy god is so powerful, he'd already know whether you'd fail his tests. Which given the downside of Adolph Hitler and Stalin "failing your crazy god's tests" argues pretty well against that.

Thats a simplistic deterministic notion, which is completely at odds with free will. The whole essence of morality demands there is true free willl to the end. God is supposed to exist in an eternal state outside of time, a state that is truly-objective (i.e. all-seeing). He wouldn't be bothered with the rats scurrying about the place as I think Leibniz pointed out.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:07:47 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		God is supposed to exist in an eternal state outside of time, a state that is truly-objective (i.e. all-seeing). He wouldn't be bothered with the rats scurrying about the place as I think Leibniz pointed out.

So, explain this. If your crazy god doesn't care about what people do, then why do people think he cares about what they do?

In other words, if your crazy god doesn't care if a soul is lost due to an abortion, why should anyone?

And they're not really "lost", are they? Nope. They "returns to Jesus", right?

So, we have crazy people sticking their nose into other people's business where they aren't invited, and they're also rude people violating the privacy of the doctor/patient relationship. And you're saying that their crazy god doesn't even give a shit if they do or don't?

Like I said. Crazy. And I'm good with all this. I don't EXPECT crazy people to be rational.

After all, they're crazy.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 4/15/2012 5:09:40 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:56:30 AM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
God is supposed to exist in an eternal state outside of time, a state that is truly-objective (i.e. all-seeing). He wouldn't be bothered with the rats scurrying about the place as I think Leibniz pointed out.

So, explain this. If your crazy god doesn't care about what people do, then why do people think he cares about what they do?

In other words, if your crazy god doesn't care if a soul is lost due to an abortion, why should anyone?

Fargey baby, I already said I wasn't religious so stop taking about my "crazy god". Neither did I state that he wouldn't care, merely that such a being is unlikely to take a birds eye view of every little life. Furthermore, it is downright silly to suggest that if God didn't care no one should. Right is right. One ought to do what they think right regardless of reward.


quote:


And they're not really "lost", are they? Nope. They "returns to Jesus", right?

So, we have crazy people sticking their nose into other people's business where they aren't invited, and they're also rude people violating the privacy of the doctor/patient relationship. And you're saying that their crazy god doesn't even give a shit if they do or don't?

Like I said. Crazy. And I'm good with all this. I don't EXPECT crazy people to be rational.

After all, they're crazy.

Souls don't simply "returns to Jesus" if they aren't baptised. Dude dig the Jesus buzz!

Religion isn't merely belief. It is also a morality and a philosophy that many who aren't religious accept. Thus Christians are entitled to express some dissent over abortion.

By the way predestination is deterministic so it is not exactly an accepted tenet of all Christian theology.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 7:20:23 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Ok, so explain to me how you get from there to sticking your nose into a doctor's exam room and intruding on the patient's privacy?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 8:01:09 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, you're saying that your god knows that there's going to be a twin, and assigns souls appropriately?
Are you saying yours can't?

But, also knowing that the blastocyst, embryo will be aborted, he still installs a soul?
What makes you think he does? How do you know that the fetus's killed ever had a soul? Maybe he knows ahead of time and just doesn't bother with the ones he know will be killed.

How fucked up is your god? And if your god so casually regards souls, why would you get bent out of shape?




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(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 10:15:05 AM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ok, so explain to me how you get from there to sticking your nose into a doctor's exam room and intruding on the patient's privacy?

I agree, that isn't a legitimate act but remember that not all those that advocate a pro-life stance would agree with such a thing. BTW I used to be completely pro-choice, and still am albeit to a more limited extent but am disturbed by the ethical issues because even a potential (i.e. non-independent) life still has a genuine ontological status.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 3:42:26 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
One side says it is acceptable to kill human beings if they are inconvenient or disabled.


Oh we're maliciously characterizing each others positions, I want to play

One side says that women are less important than single celled organisms.


< Message edited by GotSteel -- 4/15/2012 3:58:08 PM >

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 3:46:46 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
BTW I used to be completely pro-choice, and still am albeit to a more limited extent.


I don't think you can be completely any given thing, and partially that thing as well, Anax. Just saying.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 3:56:54 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		To me…maybe I am wrong but the thread is whether the prayers linked in this thread are by true Christians or are they meant only as a way of pointing out hypocrisy on the right.

I say hypocrisy because they could not be TRUE Christians and not spare, out of 40 prayers with some directly opposed to the Bible, a few words in prayer for the aborted child.

This thread is not about right or wrong…pro left or right…just about the so called prayers listed.

Not even about religion or the existence of a soul or God… Just about prayers and their sincerity or hypocrisy...But as usual we get so much drift the thread becomes something else again.

Butch

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 3:57:35 PM   
hardagain


Posts: 7
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		Most pro-abortionists have never seen a baby torn limb from limb right before their eyes. Perhaps those who toss around lame, Madison avenue slogans like "choice" should consider actually doing some research on fetal development, methods of abortion, risks to the woman - physically, emotionally, and every other way - before forming strong opinions about something they've never even seen. Imagine someone having a strong opinion about war, who had never seen a battlefield, talked to a soldier who had regrets, or studied any other aspect of weaponry or wounds. Such a person could not be taken seriously.

Abortion is NOT pro-woman, as all the early feminists knew and wrote about. This is 2012, and the best we can offer a pregnant woman is a dead baby? I think not.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 3:59:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

To me…maybe I am wrong but the thread is whether the prayers linked in this thread are by true Christians or are they meant only as a way of pointing out hypocrisy on the right.

I say hypocrisy because they could not be TRUE Christians and not spare, out of 40 prayers with some directly opposed to the Bible, a few words in prayer for the aborted child.


You're deciding whether people you don't even know are "true" Christians based solely on your conception of how they should pray?!

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
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(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 4:16:56 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Most pro-abortionists have never seen a baby torn limb from limb right before their eyes. Perhaps those who toss around lame, Madison avenue slogans like "choice" should consider actually doing some research on fetal development, methods of abortion, risks to the woman - physically, emotionally, and every other way - before forming strong opinions about something they've never even seen. Imagine someone having a strong opinion about war, who had never seen a battlefield, talked to a soldier who had regrets, or studied any other aspect of weaponry or wounds. Such a person could not be taken seriously.


By the same token, should those who would outlaw abortion first be required to watch a woman die from a back-alley procedure?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to hardagain)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:06:34 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
One side says it is acceptable to kill human beings if they are inconvenient or disabled.


Oh we're maliciously characterizing each others positions, I want to play

One side says that women are less important than single celled organisms.




What do single celled organisms have to do with any of this?

_____________________________

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(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:10:37 PM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

To me…maybe I am wrong but the thread is whether the prayers linked in this thread are by true Christians or are they meant only as a way of pointing out hypocrisy on the right.

I say hypocrisy because they could not be TRUE Christians and not spare, out of 40 prayers with some directly opposed to the Bible, a few words in prayer for the aborted child.

This thread is not about right or wrong…pro left or right…just about the so called prayers listed.

Not even about religion or the existence of a soul or God… Just about prayers and their sincerity or hypocrisy...But as usual we get so much drift the thread becomes something else again.

Butch


I would have a better time believing them if they hadn't called it 40 days of prayer. It's just a little to close to 40 days of life and makes me think it was a slap back at the first group.

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(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:13:23 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Most pro-abortionists have never seen a baby torn limb from limb right before their eyes. Perhaps those who toss around lame, Madison avenue slogans like "choice" should consider actually doing some research on fetal development, methods of abortion, risks to the woman - physically, emotionally, and every other way - before forming strong opinions about something they've never even seen. Imagine someone having a strong opinion about war, who had never seen a battlefield, talked to a soldier who had regrets, or studied any other aspect of weaponry or wounds. Such a person could not be taken seriously.


By the same token, should those who would outlaw abortion first be required to watch a woman die from a back-alley procedure?



My friend didn't die from one, but she came very close. She said the worst part was when the doctor tried to get her to sleep with him. He claimed since she had slept with the baby daddy she must be a slut and therefore wouldn't mind doing him also. What a fucking bastard.

_____________________________

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(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 5:32:53 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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quote:

My friend didn't die from one, but she came very close. She said the worst part was when the doctor tried to get her to sleep with him. He claimed since she had slept with the baby daddy she must be a slut and therefore wouldn't mind doing him also. What a fucking bastard.


My God, that's awful!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 6:19:37 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
BTW I used to be completely pro-choice, and still am albeit to a more limited extent.

I don't think you can be completely any given thing, and partially that thing as well, Anax. Just saying.

Peon, I used the past tense to describe my previous stance, which was unreserved support for the right to choose, while my present stance is more cautious...

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/15/2012 6:51:09 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I say hypocrisy because they could not be TRUE Christians and not spare, out of 40 prayers with some directly opposed to the Bible, a few words in prayer for the aborted child.


You've mentioned hypocrisy a few times now, as in whose hypocrisy is it shining a light on, let me answer that question. When you claim that Rev. Jeri Gray-Reneberg isn't a Christian, I'd say that it shines a light on yours.






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