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Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 6:46:06 PM   
Kirata


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In his book, Life's Dominion, Ronald Dworkin, Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford Universtiy and Professor of Law at New York University, argues that disputes over the morality of abortion are fundamentally religious in nature, because they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis

Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

K.
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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 7:02:31 PM   
Owner59


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If you don`t want an abortion......don`t get one......


What you`re getting at.....rabbit hole-wise are some, imposing their own beliefs on others.....


Whole different topic.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/16/2012 7:04:03 PM >


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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 7:02:47 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.


I do not believe I, as a Christian, put more value on a life then GotSteel for instance so I think his premise is wrong on a basic level.

I think with many it is just rights and making the best out of a tough situation...not less value on life.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/16/2012 7:05:20 PM >


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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 7:27:27 PM   
erieangel


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I haven't considered myself a Christian since I was 14. Do I believe in God? Yup. Do I believe that God intends for all pregnancies to end with a live birth? Nope.

Like Owner said, if you don't want an abortion...don't get one. Simple.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 8:02:01 PM   
farglebargle


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"an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe" are not necessarily linked to Religion.

For instance. I advocate a Science based model to decision making. What's the probability that a gestating blastocyst, embryo, or foetus contains an entity whose 'rights' override its creators?

If I recall, the science based test used by the US Supreme Court is 'viability'? When can the foetus be 'born' and survive independently.

Now, that this is generally consistent with my Jewish heritage's beliefs is coincidental.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/16/2012 8:42:42 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis



Without reading what I am sure is a spellbinding look inside ourselves, can you tell us how he factors in those who are atheist and base their decision and or argument on something based on what they think is right about what a person is and how they are to be treated? I mean, you can't really say a person who just maintains a personal code of conduct is practicing a religion, can you?
I'm just curious if he dealt with the atheist's point of view at all.


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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 6:19:25 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Like Owner said, if you don't want an abortion...don't get one. Simple.

That is a good, simple sound bite, but I wonder if it might also be a bit glib.

To take another polarizing issue that also turned on the legal definition of personhood, slave owners could have said, "Against slavery? Don't buy one." I'm not sure abolitionists would, or should, have accepted that line of thought.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 6:41:53 AM   
farglebargle


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The "Legal Definition of Personhood" is BEING BORN. We even commemorate the event by issuing a LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE!



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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 6:44:53 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Like Owner said, if you don't want an abortion...don't get one. Simple.

That is a good, simple sound bite, but I wonder if it might also be a bit glib.

To take another polarizing issue that also turned on the legal definition of personhood, slave owners could have said, "Against slavery? Don't buy one." I'm not sure abolitionists would, or should, have accepted that line of thought.


They did in hordes, for many years, it wasnt until the expansion of the west where slavery was demanded in the new 'US' that anything CIVIL came of it, because the refusal to admit slavery was couched as an Obama is trying to take your guns away thing, and that was the first step upon the slippery slope. 

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 6:48:21 AM   
farglebargle


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It's funny for the Anti-Family-Planners, whose position is predicated on enslaving woman because their crazy gods tell them to, suggesting that the Pro-Family-Planners are in any way similar to chattel slaveholders.

Oh, mister kettle, your bottom is so black and sooty, said mr pot...

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 9:37:11 AM   
xssve


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It's a complicated question, there is little doubt that is a religious, specifically Christian belief that abortion is wrong at any point in the gestational cycle, in contrast to the secular view that it is wrong after a certain point, and gets "wronger" the later it is.

i.e., it's also clear that there are also secular objections but they tend to be ruled more by practical considerations than theological ones.

Practically, at 20 weeks which is the outside limit for abortions that do not threaten the life of the mother, the fetus has not developed any significant higher brain function, although the nervous system has begun to develop, the brain is smooth tissue, and neural growth hasn't yet begun - I think that starts at about 26 weeks, neurons begin to multiply, and the brain begins to develop the characteristic folds that facilitate it's complexity (that's why brain size matters far less than the complexity of the folds, which are more indicative of complex intelligence, and even creature with relatively tiny brains are capable of complex behaviors), this particular aspect of fetal development would seem to negate the characterization of first Trimester abortion as "infanticide", it isn't an infant, it's more of a larvae.

Thus, the idea of "personhood" for a batch of germinating fetal cells is pretty clearly a religious belief, even if we all agree that that batch of fetal cells does at some point, become human.

The factor that this religious belief introduces to complicate things, is the notion of a soul, and the underlying motivations of the personhood movement seem much more centered on preserving this hypothetical soul than any considerations of the quality of life for either mother or child if the fetus is carried to term.

Again, this reflects religious beliefs that the outcome is the result of the will of a hypothetical deity, rather than the responsibility of the community of mankind which it will have to inhabit.

Secular systems have belief systems too, that often overlap the religious, but in the final analysis, secular value assignments are based on non relativistic confirmable empirical evidence rather than relativistic, non-confirmable belief (other religious belief systems in the past have justified infanticide, including the Jewish religion (Genesis 22) and some early Christians - see Tertullian's Apologia), for reasons both religious and practical apparently.

Another empirically demonstrable phenomena is quite simply, women can and do get pregnant when they don't want to, always have, and presumably always will, and there has always been a steady demand for early termination of unwanted pregnancy, a secular society, more concerned with the health and well being of people already born and raised or being born than with the hypothetical soul of a blastosyst, is necessarily charged with making sure this happens in a safe manner when it is deemed necessary.

Ultimately, from a point of view of beliefs, both religious and secular, it is my belief that the packaging and combination of opposition to prophylactic measures that have led to lower incidences of abortions, that accompanies opposition to abortion, equal in vehemence if not rhetorical exaggerations, undermines any theological arguments considerably, and places it much more firmly in a context of secular objection to women's right to engage in sexual intercourse with partners of their choosing for whatever reason, which is on much more fragile theological ground.

Taken in macrocosm, personhood grants personhood to the hypothetical soul of a fertilized egg at the expense of the personhood of the fully grown and enfranchised mother, who's humanity is otherwise established by law beyond question and debate, and taken to it's logical conclusion, all women by extension,

The theological argument for this disenfranchisement and dehumanization is that woman is merely a piece of man (the rib) and something more like a peripheral or vestigial organ, reduced to the status of a breeding animal, rather than an independent and self determinant consciousness.

I think they'll find that a tough sell as it's unmistakably a case of theological establishment.



< Message edited by xssve -- 4/17/2012 9:46:36 AM >


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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 10:05:05 AM   
xssve


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To summarize, equating the act of preventing fertilization with the act of abortion, is to package both in terms of the hypothetical soul rather than the body, and introduces an explicit element of predestination, as it were.

The addition of the elevation of the "humanity" of even the unfertilized egg above the rights of the existing woman establishes it very firmly in the light of theological and religious argument, and the boundaries of that argument w/respect to the secular argument of potentiality.

i.e., there is a valid secular argument there in in terms of potentiality - potentialities can be and are monetized by civil courts - in the event of physical injury or slander, compensation for loss of income, real or, potential future earnings can be recouped, but there is somewhat limited precedent for criminal prosecution for potential damages of an unrealized nature.

One cannot ascertain the potentialities of a blastocyst, much less an unfertilized egg, at best one can only hazard a guess based on actuarial data.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 11:46:01 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.
Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?


Here's what's interesting, Kirata:

I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.

On abortion threads, I have always claimed that I, personally, am Pro-Life, but that Government has no authority to be Pro-Life or Pro-Choice.

Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 4/17/2012 11:48:01 AM >


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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 1:33:56 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.


What decision are they making? Are they telling women they have to get one?

quote:

Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?


The government funds blood banks, for example. There are a few religions who do not agree with such. Are you saying the government endorses a religion by funding those?

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 1:38:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected.


Hmm... if that decision included forcing women to obtain one, I would agree. However, leaving that decision up to the women merely is allowing the access, like allowing the access for blood transfusions or transplants. They are all choices one can accept or decline.

quote:

Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.


Now this I agree with. We all have choices in our medical care. Being denied any medical treatment because someone disagrees with it based upon moral grounds is endorsing a belief or religious ideology.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 2:16:03 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


In his book, Life's Dominion, Ronald Dworkin, Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford Universtiy and Professor of Law at New York University, argues that disputes over the morality of abortion are fundamentally religious in nature, because they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis

Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

K.



I don't think it necessarily has to be religious. It can still be viewed philosophically from a non-religious point of view. The recent abortion bills in various state legislatures seem to revolve around the question of whether a fetus can feel pain after 20 weeks. To me, that seems a question best resolved by science and medicine, as well as the question as to what point human life actually begins. But I can also see that it can be addressed from a philosophical viewpoint without necessarily bringing religion into the equation.

Obviously, since I'm male, I've never been pregnant, but I've often heard it said that if men could get pregnant, they would understand the issue far better. I can't help but agree with that, but it just tends to cloud the issue even more for me. I can try to read the medical and scientific articles and try to understand them as best I can, but if there's something personal about it which I could not possibly fathom, then it might fall more into a philosophical realm.

I think that the religious tend to be at the forefront on this issue, and that may be why they're commonly associated with the anti-abortion cause. There are some religious groups which still favor legalized abortion, though. I think that a lot of people, both religious and non-religious, may not particularly like abortion and might consider it morally wrong on a personal level, but they still are against passing any laws against abortion or overturning Roe vs. Wade. If it is solely a religious issue, then that's all the more reason to keep as a personal issue and not something subject to public policy.







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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 2:23:51 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


In his book, Life's Dominion, Ronald Dworkin, Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford Universtiy and Professor of Law at New York University, argues that disputes over the morality of abortion are fundamentally religious in nature, because they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis

Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

K.


I think it's yet another take on the old "atheism is a religion to" line, to be honest.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 7:04:06 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

I completely agree. I am not "for" overturning Roe v. Wade. I'm for repealing it. If we overturn it, the Fed's are still making a decision for which they have no authority. It needs to be repealed, rescinded, whatever it's called.

What decision are they making? Are they telling women they have to get one?
quote:

Edited to ask: If the Federal Government pays for abortions or funds organizations that provide abortions, is that, too, implicitly endorsing a particular religious belief?

The government funds blood banks, for example. There are a few religions who do not agree with such. Are you saying the government endorses a religion by funding those?


Really? What authority does the Federal government have in deciding whether or not abortions are legal? That answer is "no authority." I am not saying the Federal Government needs to outlaw abortions. I am saying that the Federal Government has no authority to have an opinion on this. Period. End of discussion.

But do get all puffed up and indignant. I have said time and time again that I am not "for" barring anyone from getting an abortion. Not a single person who wants to do that. For me, and me only, I find abortions to be reprehensible and infringing on the rights of the fetus. And, that is a moral stand I take. For me. Not for you. Not for your neighbor. Not for anyone else, but me. You don't agree that abortion is morally reprehensible. Good for you. We actually agree that abortions should not be illegal. Why you piss and moan so much about my stance, I don't know.

I am not going to address your blood bank diversion until you actually answer the question I posed.

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What I support:

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  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 7:53:51 PM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


In his book, Life's Dominion, Ronald Dworkin, Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford Universtiy and Professor of Law at New York University, argues that disputes over the morality of abortion are fundamentally religious in nature, because they turn on an individual's convictions about the place and value of human life in the universe.

Whether or not you accept that analysis, it gives rise to interesting consequences...

Firstly, it means that any decision about abortion rests on convictions that are intrinsically religious for purposes of the Free Exercise clause and therefore protected. Secondly, it means that government action to prevent abortion implicitly endorses a particular religious view against all others in violation of the Establishment clause.

Reference: Litigation Essentials, Lexus Nexis

Given that religious beliefs seem to be inextricable from this debate, I thought that was an interesting take on the issue. What do you think?

K.



This is why despite being an atheist, I find Dawkins a bit silly when outside his field. The exact same quote could have been made about slavery.

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RE: Abortion and Religion - 4/17/2012 8:00:07 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Really? What authority does the Federal government have in deciding whether or not abortions are legal? That answer is "no authority." I am not saying the Federal Government needs to outlaw abortions. I am saying that the Federal Government has no authority to have an opinion on this. Period. End of discussion.


And I am saying the government has every right to decide what is legal or not. What is your basis that it does not?

The rest of your post is not worth discussing.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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