Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 8:11:27 PM)

There have been many comments about the constitutionality of the insurance mandate.

How many are aware that health care has been mandated before? That people were mandated to buy firearms?

Harvard Law professor Einer Elhauge said that early Congresses, particularly the first Congress, had no qualms about forcing purchases.

Our research confirmed that. Congress required merchant ship owners to purchase medicines or provide health care for their workers. Seamen were later taxed to pay for what might be regarded today as an 18th-century health maintenance organization to provide for hospital care. And most able-bodied men were required to purchase weaponry for their service in the militia.

Although he correctly characterized the laws, to say that the framers of the Constitution "packed" that first Congress is too much of a stretch. "Packed" means at least a majority; 22 percent is not a majority.

For that reason, we rule his statement Mostly True.



http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2012/jan/13/einer-elhauge/harvard-law-professor-says-early-congress-mandated/

In making the legal case against Obamacare’s individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too “obvious” to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.

But there’s a major problem with this line of argument: It just isn’t true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congress—which incidentally included 20 framers—passed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. That’s right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.

That’s not all. In 1792, a Congress with 17 framers passed another statute that required all able-bodied men to buy firearms. Yes, we used to have not only a right to bear arms, but a federal duty to buy them. Four framers voted against this bill, but the others did not, and it was also signed by Washington. Some tried to repeal this gun purchase mandate on the grounds it was too onerous, but only one framer voted to repeal it.

Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams.

Not only did most framers support these federal mandates to buy firearms and health insurance, but there is no evidence that any of the few framers who voted against these mandates ever objected on constitutional grounds. Presumably one would have done so if there was some unstated original understanding that such federal mandates were unconstitutional. Moreover, no one thought these past purchase mandates were problematic enough to challenge legally.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act




DesideriScuri -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 8:20:17 PM)

And, to what end did these mandates serve?

All able-bodied men had to buy firearms...raise and train an army?

Mandating a business cover it's employees, or forcing those employees to purchase health insurance isn't exactly the same as forcing the entire nation to have health insurance, whether by employer, government or personal purchase.

For what end did the mandate of purchasing insurance serve?



tazzygirl -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 8:28:17 PM)

quote:

Mandating a business cover it's employees, or forcing those employees to purchase health insurance isn't exactly the same as forcing the entire nation to have health insurance, whether by employer, government or personal purchase.


Sure it is. Its a requirement that people be covered which is the same as the mandate to have a well armed militia at the expense of its people, the government surely did not pay for their weapons, the people did.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 8:52:47 PM)

This is the first I've heard on those insurance mandates, Tazzy, but the weapons mandate has clear Constitutional foundation. Congress shall organize the militia.

I suspect laws designed to prevent (international?) sailors from coming off a ship at death's door, being saved in the local hospital, then everybody sailing away on the bill, or leaving a penniless stranger with it aren't going to be sufficient precedent for the changes now under consideration.







tazzygirl -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 8:54:46 PM)

quote:

I suspect laws designed to prevent (international?) sailors from coming off a ship at death's door, being saved in the local hospital, then everybody sailing away on the bill, or leaving a penniless stranger with it aren't going to be sufficient precedent for the changes now under consideration.


And yet that is what is happening. People show up at the ER at death's door, then leave without paying the bill.

quote:

but the weapons mandate has clear Constitutional foundation. Congress shall organize the militia.


Second Militia Act of 1792
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company overseen by the state. Militia members were to arm themselves with a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a cartridge box with 24 bullets, and a knapsack. Men owning rifles were required to provide a powder horn, 1/4 pound of gun powder, 20 rifle balls, a shooting pouch, and a knapsack.[4] Some occupations were exempt, such as congressmen, stagecoach drivers, and ferryboatmen. Otherwise, men were required to report for training twice a year, usually in the Spring and Fall.

However....

The delegates of the Constitutional Convention (the founding fathers/framers of the United States Constitution) under Article 1; section 8, clauses 15 and 16 of the federal constitution, granted Congress the power to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia," as well as, and in distinction to, the power to raise an army and a navy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_(United_States)#Constitution_and_Bill_of_Rights_.281787-1789.29

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

Seems to me the government was supposed to pay for the arming of men, yet they decided men were supposed to arm themselves instead.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 9:08:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I suspect laws designed to prevent (international?) sailors from coming off a ship at death's door, being saved in the local hospital, then everybody sailing away on the bill, or leaving a penniless stranger with it aren't going to be sufficient precedent for the changes now under consideration.


And yet that is what is happening. People show up at the ER at death's door, then leave without paying the bill.


Shipping companys are international commerce.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/17/2012 9:48:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

There have been many comments about the constitutionality of the insurance mandate.

How many are aware that health care has been mandated before? That people were mandated to buy firearms?

Harvard Law professor Einer Elhauge said that early Congresses, particularly the first Congress, had no qualms about forcing purchases.

Our research confirmed that. Congress required merchant ship owners to purchase medicines or provide health care for their workers. Seamen were later taxed to pay for what might be regarded today as an 18th-century health maintenance organization to provide for hospital care. And most able-bodied men were required to purchase weaponry for their service in the militia.

Although he correctly characterized the laws, to say that the framers of the Constitution "packed" that first Congress is too much of a stretch. "Packed" means at least a majority; 22 percent is not a majority.

For that reason, we rule his statement Mostly True.



http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2012/jan/13/einer-elhauge/harvard-law-professor-says-early-congress-mandated/

In making the legal case against Obamacare’s individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too “obvious” to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.

But there’s a major problem with this line of argument: It just isn’t true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congress—which incidentally included 20 framers—passed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. That’s right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.

That’s not all. In 1792, a Congress with 17 framers passed another statute that required all able-bodied men to buy firearms. Yes, we used to have not only a right to bear arms, but a federal duty to buy them. Four framers voted against this bill, but the others did not, and it was also signed by Washington. Some tried to repeal this gun purchase mandate on the grounds it was too onerous, but only one framer voted to repeal it.

Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams.

Not only did most framers support these federal mandates to buy firearms and health insurance, but there is no evidence that any of the few framers who voted against these mandates ever objected on constitutional grounds. Presumably one would have done so if there was some unstated original understanding that such federal mandates were unconstitutional. Moreover, no one thought these past purchase mandates were problematic enough to challenge legally.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act




Be aware that statistics don't lie....statisticians do.

Hon, I don't have a horse in this race but...many do.

It's going to cost you a lot.

I don't actually give a fuck. I make a shit load of money (I actually make more money than I should) so I REALLY don't care....I'm actually (one of those sick fucking Republicans) on the side of "everyone should have health care" BUT......it's gonna cost a FUCKLOAD of money....and YOU'RE going to pay (waaaaaaaay the fuck) more than I will.

I believe in universal health care.....but it ain't gonna cost me shit (comparatively). But it's gonna cost you a shitload.



joether -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 1:49:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Be aware that statistics don't lie....statisticians do.

Hon, I don't have a horse in this race but...many do.

It's going to cost you a lot.

I don't actually give a fuck. I make a shit load of money (I actually make more money than I should) so I REALLY don't care....I'm actually (one of those sick fucking Republicans) on the side of "everyone should have health care" BUT......it's gonna cost a FUCKLOAD of money....and YOU'RE going to pay (waaaaaaaay the fuck) more than I will.

I believe in universal health care.....but it ain't gonna cost me shit (comparatively). But it's gonna cost you a shitload.


Suppose you could rewrite this with 'a few' less curse words? If your in favor of health care for all US Citizens, your NOT a Republican. Since Republicans have made it very clear, that they are against any sort of real health care in the USA. But since you make a '....shitload of money....' I guess your 'ok', that we tax you even more to help pay for the '...fuckload of money...' you think it'll cost to make health care work well in America.

If your a REAL Republican, why do you vote for people whom are against health care for US Citizens? Since anyone whom votes for a Democrat (who really are in favor of health care for all US Citizens) cant possibly be a Republican.



kalikshama -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 5:54:14 AM)

The Tortuous History of Conservatives and the Individual Mandate

Mitt Romney, as we know, has been catching a lot of flak from conservatives for Romneycare, because Romney’s signature legislative achievement served as the model for Obamacare. But as Romney said in a debate in Las Vegas last October, “we got the idea of an individual mandate…from [Newt Gingrich], and [Newt] got it from the Heritage Foundation.” Politically, it’s an important point, because Romney is inaccurately being portrayed as some kind of left-wing outlier, when in fact there were some major conservative institutions (like Heritage) and figures (like Gingrich) who supported the mandate.

Read more: http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/02/07/the-tortuous-conservative-history-of-the-individual-mandate/



tazzygirl -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 8:09:40 AM)

quote:

I don't actually give a fuck. I make a shit load of money (I actually make more money than I should) so I REALLY don't care....I'm actually (one of those sick fucking Republicans) on the side of "everyone should have health care" BUT......it's gonna cost a FUCKLOAD of money....and YOU'RE going to pay (waaaaaaaay the fuck) more than I will.

I believe in universal health care.....but it ain't gonna cost me shit (comparatively). But it's gonna cost you a shitload.


Its already costing me my life not to have it. How much more?



kalikshama -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 8:13:28 AM)

[image]http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1puzbVQkG1r4k4dho1_500.png[/image]



tazzygirl -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 8:59:16 AM)

Thats the part they are not seeing. They only see the "cost shifting". The part they conveniently neglect is that the costs will be shifting back towards the users who do not pay.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 9:05:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Be aware that statistics don't lie....statisticians do.

Hon, I don't have a horse in this race but...many do.

It's going to cost you a lot.

I don't actually give a fuck. I make a shit load of money (I actually make more money than I should) so I REALLY don't care....I'm actually (one of those sick fucking Republicans) on the side of "everyone should have health care" BUT......it's gonna cost a FUCKLOAD of money....and YOU'RE going to pay (waaaaaaaay the fuck) more than I will.

I believe in universal health care.....but it ain't gonna cost me shit (comparatively). But it's gonna cost you a shitload.


Suppose you could rewrite this with 'a few' less curse words? If your in favor of health care for all US Citizens, your NOT a Republican. Since Republicans have made it very clear, that they are against any sort of real health care in the USA. But since you make a '....shitload of money....' I guess your 'ok', that we tax you even more to help pay for the '...fuckload of money...' you think it'll cost to make health care work well in America.

If your a REAL Republican, why do you vote for people whom are against health care for US Citizens? Since anyone whom votes for a Democrat (who really are in favor of health care for all US Citizens) cant possibly be a Republican.


I don't vote anymore.

I (stupidly) voted for Bush Jr., and Gore won the most votes.

I accepted the deal that whoever won the most votes should be the President.

He wasn't....I was lied to (so were you) in that your vote actually means anything.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 6:01:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I accepted the deal that whoever won the most votes should be the President.




Try Googling how our elections work then, and don't take any more deals from whoever sold you on that one.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 6:28:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I accepted the deal that whoever won the most votes should be the President.




Try Googling how our elections work then, and don't take any more deals from whoever sold you on that one.


Here's the deal:

Gore won more votes.

Bush became the Prez.

I don't need to learn how elections work...I was told since a small child that my vote counted and that the one with the most votes....wins.

Clearly I was misinformed.

Again, I don't need to know how it works....without debate, my vote doesn't matter, ergo...HOWEVER it works....my vote doesn't matter.

(Hence, why I don't vote).



DesideriScuri -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 6:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thats the part they are not seeing. They only see the "cost shifting". The part they conveniently neglect is that the costs will be shifting back towards the users who do not pay.


How true, because those who are currently not paying will have no problem forking over the cash for insurance.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 7:03:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Clearly I was misinformed.




And were scarred by the experience as well, it would seem. [8|] Had a sheltered sort of life, huh?

Let me bring you up to speed in here, though.

Some people think that universal healthcare is an end in itself, and don't give a rip how it is achieved. Not only do they not care, they'll passionately support any damned fool notion that comes along, claiming it will achieve it. Others, such as myself, think universal healthcare is a noble and worthwhile goal, but want to know how we make it work without stifling wide ranging research and development, placing what should be personal and family matters into the hands of government, and lowering the overall levels of the quality and comfort of care, without creating a massive invitation to fraud and leading us into a spiral of ever increasing costs, regulations and bureaucracy.

Apparently, that makes me mean.



Musicmystery -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 7:06:49 PM)

And ill-informed; we already ARE in a spiral of ever-increasing costs.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 7:22:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And ill-informed; we already ARE in a spiral of ever-increasing costs.



You ain't seen nuthin yet.



TheHeretic -> RE: Founding fathers voted for health care mandates (4/18/2012 7:46:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And ill-informed



You often seem like a bright guy, Muse, but you never quite catch that I'm willing to get on board with nationalizing the whole damn industry, if somebody can persuade me they've got a realistic, long-term, vision of how we, well, I'll just quote myself and hope it sticks this time.

quote:

how we make it work without stifling wide ranging research and development, placing what should be personal and family matters into the hands of government, and lowering the overall levels of the quality and comfort of care, without creating a massive invitation to fraud and leading us into a spiral of ever increasing costs, regulations and bureaucracy


Maybe try an answer, instead of a snark?



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