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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 5:09:35 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I tend to be very skeptical of attempts to insert Jesus into contemporary politics. He was way too multifaceted for that.

quote:

I tend to be very skeptical of attempts to insert Jesus into contemporary politics. He was way too multifaceted for that.

He certainly wouldn't be up for any of the bullshit compromises that modern party politics is based on, no.

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 5:35:07 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

............ but the parable of the three servants entrusted with coins shows that he at least valued the idea of basic capitalism because the one who invested the gold was praised by the king.

I took the meaning of that parable as working to the best of your abilities and personal talents. The approval of the King wasn't that the servant had more than doubled the gold, but he had done his best by his King/Master/employer.

I think you are right about that but there seems to be another message in the parable too. The two servants who are successful double the value of the money by engaging in some unspecified business enterprise - perhaps buying and selling, while the unfortunate dude is given out to and severely punished for not even banking the money to generate some interest so it has a capitalistic theme. There is an interesting final verse: "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2025:14-25:30&version=ESV which seems to be a moral about being rewarded for work, whilst those that do not will be punished. Thats a matter of interpretation of course but it certainly seems to be a far cry from liberalism and especially socialism!

good point and well made but, it doesnt address wealth only that productivity has a reward. It ius also one parable and hoew many speak of the need to care for the poor. There ia lso the eye of the camel and the rich man. wealth in the presence of suffering was never expoused as a virue to my knowledge. then there is the to each there needs parable of the vinyard which spoke of pay by need not value added.

Thanks for saying so. I suppose I would reply by saying that a moderate level of wealth (they were significant sums at the time although I think there is some disagreement on the issue) was the reward for the work. And there was a very clear hierarchy for this reward. Even the Talent of the servant who buried the money was given to the servant who earned the most rather than the second favoured servant who started with less. I agree with you that Jesus favoured social justice with regard to money and poverty which is to some extent a socialist notion (although not exclusively so), as exemplified in other parables but I think it is going too far to say he was a socialist. He may have been tapping into the old notions of the nobility of the poor, e.g. in the Psalms.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/22/2012 5:40:36 AM >

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 5:35:29 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

Mathew 22

"17 Tell us therefore what dost thou think? Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus knowing their wickedness, said: 'Why do you tempt me, ye hypocrites?' 19 'Shew me the coin of the tribute.' And they offered him a penny. 20 And Jesus saith to them: 'Whose image and inscription is this? 21 They say to him: 'Caesar's'. Then he saith to them: 'Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God, the things that are God's.'."

You see, to a Christian (and Jesus' words aren't even open for misinterpretation, here), it isn't proper to give government more (importance, authority, control, "worship") than what it deserves in the hierarchy of the world/universe.

I take your point, but that citation cuts both ways. If we read the passage literally, and you know some people will, then money is one of "the things that are Caesar's" and we are not at liberty to render only a part of what is Caesar's to Caesar, withholding some for ourselves.

Let's please not tempt the illiterate.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/22/2012 5:36:49 AM >

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 6:28:17 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
He certainly wouldn't be up for any of the bullshit compromises that modern party politics is based on, no.


Who would Jesus whip?

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 9:31:20 AM   
PatrickG38


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Status: offline 		The ignorance of Jesus and how the gospels were complied makes discussion impossible. Jesus never talked about reward in another life, but was concerned with the ushering in of a new order to this life. I know Paul and the institutional church has passed around this eschatological nonsense to make the Jesus acceptable to the powerful and wealthy, but if you do not realize Jesus was a revolutionary you miss the point. Jesus at time is unconcerned with Roman government because he does not expect it to be a round (yes, he was very wrong on that).

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 9:44:49 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		What else did you two talk about?

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 10:54:16 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

The ignorance... Jesus never talked about reward in another life

Yeah really, the ignorance!

K.

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 11:10:38 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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Status: offline 		http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fetd.lsu.edu%2Fdocs%2Favailable%2Fetd-0616103-114424%2Funrestricted%2FHopson-Sparks_dis.pdf&ei=vUWUT-ChOK626QHx-ZylBA&usg=AFQjCNEO3oWddb1KvJQg07woZRLfK-LeTg as study on the actual words. Patrick in some cases it may just be paraphrasing because the time between his death and the scriptures would of relied on oral history right? Who can tell though. i remembered this study from ma few yrs ago. The historical figuire of Jesus has always fascinated me. His teachings were so radical for that period and his proclamations on the corrosive nature of wealth and greed, the spiritual ramifications in the next life of not aiding the poor should make any christian in a manhatten co op a little nervous everytime they look at a poor suffering mentally ill woman draped in plastic to stay dry, a bag her entire worth and a stench to drive flies away and get disgusted.

if really embraced by a society it would make a civilized society. When children die from brain infections brought on by abcesses and the inability to get dental care and the mentally ill sleep in doorways and veterans are the largest percentage of the homeless it shows we have a long ways to go. http://www.friendships.org/Scriptures.html over and over and over. Someone stated his concerns were the spiritual world not physical. I think on the subject of a responsibility to help the needy he combines the two with clear consequences inthe next life outlined if action isnt taken in this one.

< Message edited by Mupainurpleasure -- 4/22/2012 11:11:28 AM >

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 11:37:48 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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Status: offline 		On a side note on the historical figuire. I fnd it hard to believe anyone other than the senate appointed govenor Pilate was responsibble for the crucifixation. jesus was just one more jew to crucify. the period of his death was a long ramp up to the disapora post 70 ad revolt and 2nd century destruction of the temple the jews were a problem people. There is no way to know its pure conjecture and I admit that so pure opinion not backed up. It just strikes me as odd a ruler who is brutally supressing a people deferring to them on a decison like this. Terror through public crucifixation was widespread. the slave revolt in bc70s ended with miles upon miles of crucificed people left to rot as an example. it was a form of state terror and Roman to the core and there was no conflict around it that I know of. it was S.O.P and the idea Pilate was troubled about killing any jew seems a stretch

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 11:52:04 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:



Judging all Christians by some bad actors is unfair. It reminds me of someone I used to work with saying they park their shopping carts in the handicapped slots cause it pissed them off to see-able bodied people use the slots. Apples and oranges.

I agree that's why I specifically referenced the right wing evagelical part of the republican party they do widely support measures that will hurt the poor and at he same time supoport further taxcuts for the rich. it is a generality but one supported by how they vote. they vote to supporet cutting the social safety net and high end taxes. It's fine. that is a valid positon to have. It just doenst reflect christian teachings. Clearly jesus wouldnt of been marchng for planned paranthood it isnt a he must be democat if he isnt republican. it would take some real mental gynastics to claim he would of opposed aiding th epoor in favor of further enriching the wealthy. It's really not debateable unless you really cherry pick there are just way to many instances of it. I refernced a site that had a long list. I think Christian values are admirable and would make the basis for a great socety when looking at the value placed on meeting the needs of the least of our brothers. I dont have to believe in God to recognize in terms of compassion, empathy selflessness, caring for cimmunitty the man had it right. Christ for the most part provides a roadmap on morality minus the condemnations that came out of cultural differnces beteween urban greek jews and the judean non cosmopolitan society

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/22/2012 8:13:26 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

.................It just strikes me as odd a ruler who is brutally supressing a people deferring to them on a decison like this.


The custom was releasing a prisoner during Passover. Pilate realized the local powers that be were threatened by what Jesus preached. He tried to use the loop-hole of established practice to free Jesus. The locals knowingly asked for a different prisoner (Barrabas) to be freed.

ETA: Christ wouldn't have been marching for either of our political parties. He wouldn't have been concerned with affiliations within a system.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 4/22/2012 8:18:09 PM >

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/23/2012 4:33:51 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

.................It just strikes me as odd a ruler who is brutally supressing a people deferring to them on a decison like this.


The custom was releasing a prisoner during Passover. Pilate realized the local powers that be were threatened by what Jesus preached. He tried to use the loop-hole of established practice to free Jesus. The locals knowingly asked for a different prisoner (Barrabas) to be freed.

ETA: Christ wouldn't have been marching for either of our political parties. He wouldn't have been concerned with affiliations within a system.
I agree he wouldnt of been in a political party and hell he might not of even been an American :) He would of still been condemning apathy toward the poor and the calls for ending aid to them for the purpose of allowing the wealthies of us to pay less taxes I can't see where that can be contested with anything but a parable with contested meaning. Poverty is an issue he hammers at not one he mentions in passing.


You speak of a jewish custom being respected by a roman ruler. It may say that in the bible. it may in fact be true but, I can think of an example outside the bible of Romans repsecting jewish tradition at all let alone enough to give deference to it. I admiited it is unproveable it is ooc. Rome actively suppressed jewish traditions as policy. It makes the seqwuence of events contradictory to how Rome treated jews. they were perscuted not deferred to. Unlike cosmopology Roman hitiry is somethng i am well versed in. It's off putting I am not claiming it didnt happen but it falls out of the long narrative of contempt and persecution Rome practiced toward jews

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/23/2012 6:20:20 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
The custom was releasing a prisoner during Passover. Pilate realized the local powers that be were threatened by what Jesus preached. He tried to use the loop-hole of established practice to free Jesus. The locals knowingly asked for a different prisoner (Barrabas) to be freed.

ETA: Christ wouldn't have been marching for either of our political parties. He wouldn't have been concerned with affiliations within a system.


The stories of Jesus and I say stories as opposed to story because we're talking about multiple authors, from a culture where it was common practice not to let historical accuracy get in the way of narrative crafting, pushing their personal positions. This part of the story is about scapegoating blame away from the Romans and rationalizing how their supposedly super magical messiah got himself killed over a hate crime as opposed to anything that might have actually happened.

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/23/2012 6:37:19 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
The custom was releasing a prisoner during Passover. Pilate realized the local powers that be were threatened by what Jesus preached. He tried to use the loop-hole of established practice to free Jesus. The locals knowingly asked for a different prisoner (Barrabas) to be freed.

ETA: Christ wouldn't have been marching for either of our political parties. He wouldn't have been concerned with affiliations within a system.


The stories of Jesus and I say stories as opposed to story because we're talking about multiple authors, from a culture where it was common practice not to let historical accuracy get in the way of narrative crafting, pushing their personal positions. This part of the story is about scapegoating blame away from the Romans and rationalizing how their supposedly super magical messiah got himself killed over a hate crime as opposed to anything that might have actually happened.


I wont double down on the end of your point withthe super magical messiah but, think it was astute to blame the jews. If they had written down Pilate did the deed andRome responsible we'd have a lot of northern europeans talking about Woden today and we'd think of christians like shakers a group whoose beliefs guarenteed extinction

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/23/2012 8:18:32 PM   
dcnovice


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I'm of the impression that [Jesus'] death had to do with the hate crime he committed at the temple.

The use of the phrase "hate crime" in this instance startled and intrigued me--in a good, thought-provoking way. I see how it was certainly a crime by the lights of the authorities. (As young Catholics, of course, we learned that Jesus was doing the right thing, asserting his divine authority over the temple. But that's another story.)

I puzzle a bit over the adjective "hate," though. As I've generally heard "hate crime" used, it refers to an atrocity rooted in perceived difference: white/black, gay/straight, Christian/Jew, etc. Jesus, though, was of the same culture and religion as the moneychangers in the temple, so I'm having trouble seeing where the hate/bias comes in. I would sincerely appreciate learning more about why you consider this not just a crime but a hate crime.

Bonus sappy anecdote: A priest on Long Island when I was growing up there was a gifted artist and architect. He designed the magnificent chapel of my high school--the first modern architecture, I now realize, that I truly appreciated. Anyhow, he got a commission for a pen and ink of Jesus in the temple. He hemmed and hawed before tackling such a grim topic, then inspiration struck. When the artist finished the work, the client was stunned. The fierce face of Christ that he'd been expecting was lined with grief and streaming with tears. "It was the only way," the artist said, "I could imagine Our Lord taking a whip to a fellow human being."

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/23/2012 9:04:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

the story is about scapegoating blame away from the Romans and rationalizing how their supposedly super magical messiah got himself killed over a hate crime as opposed to anything that might have actually happened.

While I appreciate your talent for inventing fanciful exegeses, they are only your fantasies.

For a more accurate presentation by the BBC, you can consult the first link below. The matter is also addressed on the "Famous Trials" website of the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law, at the second link below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/whokilledjesus_1.shtml
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesusaccount.html

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/23/2012 9:18:31 PM >

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/24/2012 9:14:50 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I puzzle a bit over the adjective "hate," though. As I've generally heard "hate crime" used, it refers to an atrocity rooted in perceived difference: white/black, gay/straight, Christian/Jew, etc. Jesus, though, was of the same culture and religion as the moneychangers in the temple, so I'm having trouble seeing where the hate/bias comes in. I would sincerely appreciate learning more about why you consider this not just a crime but a hate crime.

I would say that the cleansing of the temple was the very first Christian against Jew hate crime. Even though he may have thought he belonged to the same religion, he was teaching something noticeably different and his actions were because of one of those differences.

Also one doesn't need to be of a different religion to commit a hate crime, such Christian on Christian violence has been far too frequent in our history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
The use of the phrase "hate crime" in this instance startled and intrigued me--in a good, thought-provoking way. I see how it was certainly a crime by the lights of the authorities. (As young Catholics, of course, we learned that Jesus was doing the right thing, asserting his divine authority over the temple. But that's another story.)

I don't think that's another story, that's part of my point? How many atrocities has that very same reasoning been used to justify? When Muslims flew planes into the twin towers what are the chances they thought they weren't carrying out the will of Allah?

However, what I really wanted to get at is that I think liberal Christians should be rather wary of finding the extremists wanting as true Christians because Jesus was an extremist, he committed violence and got himself killed rather than being willing to agree to disagree.

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/24/2012 11:09:56 AM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Doh, I was a little distracted, ignore that first question mark.

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/24/2012 4:20:03 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Fascinating and much appreciated food for thought. Thank you, Steel!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: As an Aethist sees it... - 4/25/2012 11:39:36 AM   
GotSteel


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