RE: Bullying... the results (Full Version)

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DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:09:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Tricky for a kid who's stuck in a wheelchair, I'd have thought.


Trickier still is finding more than one instance of that type of freak injury.




DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:10:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Or we could try to raise our kids to respect others.


LoL. Yeah...that'll work. While you're at it...go on and teach them that abstinence works best too. Ooops.




DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:13:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko
On the one hand, I can't help but agree. Many of us grew up handling hard times during school and with friends just like everyone else and came out relatively unscathed. We think.

The anti-bullying campaign is really not as "lame" as it appears on the surface. If a student feels bullied, pressured, scared,...his ability to receive the same education as the other students are recieving is impaired. We allow for individual education plans and 504 plans for students who need special accomodations for instruction. If a student has a broken leg, they cannot participate in physical activities in gym so we allow them to do benchwork. If a student has an adverse reaction to stimuli, we modify their instructional delivery.

Well, being bullied is not a disability and it doesn't qualify for a 504 plan. (And I'm not suggesting it should.) However, being bullied does, indeed, result in some very real defecits in a student's ability to concentrate and learn. While it's not the school's responsibility to be sure a child has only positive relationships with all of his peers, it is the school's responsibility to be sure each child has access to the same educational opportunities. Therefore, it is the school's responsibility to provide a safe learning environment for all students.

The only way to provide this safe environment for all, short of modifying instructional delivery which we already know we cannot do, is bullying prevention. This has come to light only in the past few years, yes. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's coddling. We are more aware now of the adverse affects on a child's education that bullying can have. (A very basic example - if a child is too scared to come to school, he is not receiving his education. At all.)

It took me awhile to wrap my head around this, I admit. But now I look back and I wonder...if all of us who did experience some sort of bullying or harassment could remove those experiences, would our educational history and achievements be different?


The problem with the campaign is that it, like anything else, works on a pendulum. Sooner or later we'll get to the point where a lil' nerdy kid can whisper the word "bully" and suddenly whomever he points at has their life ruined over what could essentially be nothing but boyhood teasing.

How about we try and do both? Stop the harsher examples of bullying while teaching the rest of the kids "Hey...life ain't all hugs and puppies. Grow a set and deal with it."




DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:16:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Teaching violence as the answer for violence usually leads to guess what?


It doesn't have to be violence. But that's what the tree-huggers would have you believe. You can stand up to yourself with words first. Then, if the bully escalates things -- knock the shit out of him.

When I was bullied, it began with words. So I fought back with words. When the bully decided to take a swing...I swung back twice as hard. It got to the point eventually where one day at the bus stop, this asshole said "Do you think I should kick your ass?" And I just said "No." He asked why not and I just replied "Because I'll kick back." And that was the end of the "confrontation." Not a punch thrown, no violence at all. Just a short conversation where he learned I wasn't afraid of him.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:27:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Not a punch thrown, no violence at all. Just a short conversation where he learned I wasn't afraid of him.


THAT, ladies and gentlemen is how to end 99% of all bullying.

Once they realize there is no fear, they have doubts. Once they have doubts, they cease.




PatrickG38 -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 9:29:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Teaching violence as the answer for violence usually leads to guess what?


It doesn't have to be violence. But that's what the tree-huggers would have you believe. You can stand up to yourself with words first. Then, if the bully escalates things -- knock the shit out of him.

When I was bullied, it began with words. So I fought back with words. When the bully decided to take a swing...I swung back twice as hard. It got to the point eventually where one day at the bus stop, this asshole said "Do you think I should kick your ass?" And I just said "No." He asked why not and I just replied "Because I'll kick back." And that was the end of the "confrontation." Not a punch thrown, no violence at all. Just a short conversation where he learned I wasn't afraid of him.



I am sure your anecdotal story, let's assume it is true, would make for excellent public policy. By the way, I will concede some of the zero-tolerance policies are too extreme (as all almost all zero-tolerance polices), but nevertheless, the routine abuse by the stronger against he weaker cannot be tolerated as kids being kids and schools should make it clear. Like anything else some intelligent judgment would go a long way.




Moonhead -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 10:13:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Teaching violence as the answer for violence usually leads to guess what?

Columbine, in one recent case that got a lot of publicity.
In a society as pro gun as yours, I'm a bit surprised that there aren't a lot more school shootings...




tazzygirl -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 10:18:20 AM)

quote:

No. Columbine was the result of two pussy nutjobs who thought that guns were the answer -- in other words, you're partly right. No one taught them how to stand up to bullies, so they used guns because they were too afraid to stand up for themselves otherwise.


And, again, you have yet to offer a solution as to who is supposed to teach these kids how, when, and in what form to stand up for themselves. Its the ... adults.. job to do so. And adults does not just constitute parents.

quote:

When I was in middle school I had *no one*. I was picked on routinely until someone pushed me too far. A few bruised jaws and a weight-lifting class later -- no one fucked with me anymore.

I'm not saying I was a badass or anything. But when word starts to spread that the spindly lil' nerd was seen in gym class bench-pressing more than his own body weight....people decided I was no longer the one to fuck with.


Good for you! Not every middle school has one. Not every kid who is bullied can bench press. And not every bully backs down. Blaming the victim for the crimes of the bully is just another form of bullying.




tazzygirl -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 10:35:16 AM)

quote:

I don't know much about lawsuits and the like (thank goodness) but I have a hard time reconciling an award like that when the intent wasn't there. The boy who did the punching didn't do it with intent to put the other in a wheelchair. The knowledge was not even there, I'm sure, that it could happen. Seems to really be kind of a rare event, given the number of punches to the stomach that happen that don't result in paralysis.


The intent, as I see it, was to cause pain. A punch to the stomach will always cause pain. It can also cause massive injuries. Just because it does not do so everytime doesnt mean it cannot do so the first time.

I would also add that this was not a verdict against the bully but the school. They should have known the possible physical effects of bullies.

Youngman found that there had been at least three separate reports, one involving police, of the other student violently bullying his classmates, but the school didn't keep any paperwork documenting investigations or any documents showing disciplinary actions.

The school knew the violent tendencies of this student and did nothing.




thishereboi -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 12:00:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Or we could try to raise our kids to respect others.


LoL. Yeah...that'll work. While you're at it...go on and teach them that abstinence works best too. Ooops.



My parents had no problems teaching us that bullying was bad. My sister didn't either. In fact I can think of a whole shit load of people who managed this. Now I know there are some kids out there that are going to grow up to be assholes, but I don't see that as a reason to stop trying to teach them right from wrong.




lovmuffin -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 1:50:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I think some kids are unable to ,or afraid to stand up for themselves.


That's my point. We need to teach our kids that if they are being bullied they need to take a stand. Taking a stand doesn't mean you won't get hurt. It means you're showing the bully you aren't going to be an easy target. And you're right up to a point but with some kids it's not that simple. It would really depend on the tenacity of the bullied kid, his environment, his parents and other specifics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
The anti-bullying campaign may be lame, I don't know but if it helps I'm all for it.


It won't. It will only do what we've already started doing -- teaching our kids that if they cry, we'll make things all better for them. No red-pen grading because it hurts their feelings; everyone gets a trophy; and no one ges bullied and forced to stand up for themselves. These kids are in for a rude awakening in the real world. You're right again but again only up to a point. Teaching the bullied kids to fight just won't work with all kids, especially the smaller weaker ones. If at all possible, the schools need to put a stop to the bullies. I agree that No red-pen grading and everyone gets a trophy is stupid but it doesn't have much to do with the topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
Bullying is criminal.


That's a stretch. Maybe but if it's adult vs adult it's definitely criminal. What's the difference if it's kid vs kid ?


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
If an adult bullies another adult it could be grounds to "stand your ground" if you know what I mean.


Which means they are standing up for themselves, not being an easy target and hiding, waiting for the overworked police to save the day. That was a veiled attempt by me to imply if an adult bullies another adult, the bullied adult may have grounds to blow the bully away. That should give the police some extra work.




I could relate my own experience with bullies but I would rather not to any great extent. Suffice It to state that it took years of self defense classes and my dad giving me instruction and the confidence not to be afraid of a fight. By the time I finally learned, it only took one fight and the problem was solved as another poster related in a similar experience. So in my case what you keep stating would seem to be correct but it wasn't that easy. I experienced a bully problem for awhile in my younger life. It took me till almost the eighth grade to get the situation under control. By the 10th grade I don't recall any bullying of the physical type was a problem with anyone, at least around my neck of the woods. I remember a friend who when very young, some bullies took his ball. He went into the house crying to his parents when his dad took his belt off and threatened to beat his ass if he didn't go get his ball back. He went out and beat the crap out of one of them, as he was more afraid of his dad than the bullies, and got his ball back, so as the story was related to me that is. Once again that would seem to suggest you're right but I would suggest that sort of thing wouldn't work all the time if even a majority of the time.




lovmuffin -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 1:51:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Maybe we should stop coddling our kids and teach them life is hard and that sometimes they're going to hve to stand up for themselves.


Ender Wiggin successfully stood up to bullies.



Who is Ender Wiggin ?




lovmuffin -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 1:53:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Why dont we just strap a side arm to every kid who goes to school and let the chips fall where they may?



Hmmmm...... I'm pondering this. [8D]




angelikaJ -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 1:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Tricky for a kid who's stuck in a wheelchair, I'd have thought.


Trickier still is finding more than one instance of that type of freak injury.




You seem to be forgetting that some of the kids who are bullied now end up as suicides.
I guess those are freak injuries too.

Bullying now is not just reserved for the bus ride, the school yard, the hallways, the classroom, the lunch room, the restrooms, or the playground... it is also done over the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Phoebe_Prince

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/10/11118720-family-bullying-by-wolf-pack-led-to-texas-teens-suicide?lite

http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html

Had that been the case when I was growing up, I am fairly certain I would not have survived high school.





Moonhead -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 1:57:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Maybe we should stop coddling our kids and teach them life is hard and that sometimes they're going to hve to stand up for themselves.


Ender Wiggin successfully stood up to bullies.



Who is Ender Wiggin ?

A fictional character in a science fiction novel by a mormon who had the author on his side.




angelikaJ -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 2:09:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Maybe we should stop coddling our kids and teach them life is hard and that sometimes they're going to hve to stand up for themselves.


Ender Wiggin successfully stood up to bullies.



Who is Ender Wiggin ?

A fictional character in a science fiction novel by a mormon who had the author on his side.


http://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Book-1/dp/0812550706




Kaliko -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 4:05:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I would also add that this was not a verdict against the bully but the school. They should have known the possible physical effects of bullies.

Youngman found that there had been at least three separate reports, one involving police, of the other student violently bullying his classmates, but the school didn't keep any paperwork documenting investigations or any documents showing disciplinary actions.

The school knew the violent tendencies of this student and did nothing.



I am always skeptical of a media report maintaining that a school has done nothing. And in this case, it's not being stated that the school did nothing. It's being stated that the school didn't keep any paperwork documenting what was done. That's not quite the same thing.

This occurred six years ago, before the current bullying prevention laws came into effect and so, was likely handled similarly, and not unlawfully, as other discipline events were. There are a whole string of events and investigative pieces that are specific to bullying and the string of pattern to harrassment and how to identify, rule out, report on, and prevent each, and these are designed to follow these new laws. These things simply didn't exist years back.

Reports of school discipline involving police are not rare at all. In many cases, police are involved as a matter of course. Many times, a "police report" is filed, but it is really nothing more than a copy of a discipline report faxed over to the school truancy officer. There is an evident spin to the article.

And lastly, and most damning to me, is that the case was settled. Because of that, we will never know the specifics. There was no public trial, and no opportunity for the district to state its side. Settling was likely the right choice as far as money goes. It is a drain of resources, both financial and human. But, there is no way for the district to speak publicly about it as the family has done. Privacy laws abound and tie the hands of school administrators from stating events from their perspective.

Was there some wrongdoing? I honestly don't know and so I'm not going to be foolish and say that the schools didn't do anything wrong. Perhaps they were completely irresponsible. I can't make either judgment based on this article, though. It is a one-sided slant on an issue that touches on the hearts of many. It evokes an emotional response and so is a good "sell." But bullying has been and is being addressed nationwide on a grand scale. This one case has not enacted the fight for anti-bullying training for students. I feel for the family and I understand that, faced with the grief they have experienced, a rallying-cry and fight for the downtrodden does help them through it. But I would hesitate to judge the motives of a school district based on an article that seems to be written as the premise for a Lifetime movie.

I know how heartless that sounds. It is indicative of my feelings toward the media, not toward this family or the boy. I barely ever trust the media to get it right.




tazzygirl -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 5:04:28 PM)

quote:

This occurred six years ago, before the current bullying prevention laws came into effect and so, was likely handled similarly, and not unlawfully, as other discipline events were.


6 years ago would have been.... 2006. ( yay! I can do math!)

2002 was NJ's first anti-bullying law...

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/PL02/83_.HTM

In particular this part...

C.18A:37-15 Adoption of policy by each school district.

Now, just seems to me that if the police were called in on one incident of violance, why was there no record?

I cannot, in all good conscious, dismiss the fact that the school district was not negligent in some aspect, especially considering the law.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 5:40:21 PM)

He didn"t get the award from the kid, he got it from the school system who took no action to protect him from a pattern of bullying
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Why is 4.2 million dollars punitive for this severe of an injury, even by your justification? This is a teenager who will be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I have a partner with a spinal injury. He constantly suffers from pressure sores, that have on occasion reached the bone. He has bladder infections twice a month that he cannot detect, so it often reaches his kidneys. He had one kid, then became sterile. His wife has to insert a catheter twice a day for him to urinate. He has to wear diapers and a urine bag. He requires nonstop assistance. How much would you have to be paid to live like that for 30-40 years? Oh yes, his life expectancy is much shorter than a normal person, also. Calling that lucky is one of the more ignorant things I have heard anyone say.

Criminal negligence charges against the school? It is a municipal corporation, and i doubt any one person was culpable enough to go to jail. They would have have paid a fine to the state, at most. Personally, I would rather see this poor bastard get the money.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


I am not sanguine about the way these cases are approached. In my view, an award of damages in the amount of the victim's medical treatment and psychological recovery costs suffices for the civil component of redress. The punitive component should be manifest in criminal negligence charges, not a winning lottery ticket for the "lucky" victim and his family.

K.





I don't know much about lawsuits and the like (thank goodness) but I have a hard time reconciling an award like that when the intent wasn't there. The boy who did the punching didn't do it with intent to put the other in a wheelchair. The knowledge was not even there, I'm sure, that it could happen. Seems to really be kind of a rare event, given the number of punches to the stomach that happen that don't result in paralysis.







Kaliko -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 5:55:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

This occurred six years ago, before the current bullying prevention laws came into effect and so, was likely handled similarly, and not unlawfully, as other discipline events were.


6 years ago would have been.... 2006. ( yay! I can do math!)

2002 was NJ's first anti-bullying law...

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2002/Bills/PL02/83_.HTM

In particular this part...

C.18A:37-15 Adoption of policy by each school district.

Now, just seems to me that if the police were called in on one incident of violance, why was there no record?

I cannot, in all good conscious, dismiss the fact that the school district was not negligent in some aspect, especially considering the law.



I understand. And the school district may very well have been negligent. The thing is, we just don't know without hearing what they have to say. And the district is damned because they can't say what they need to say.

We've had anti-bullying laws and/or policies in place for years in New Hampshire, as well. But the push for stronger school involvement and prevention is sweeping nationwide these past few years and affecting all - positively, I should add. Cyberbullying has become a huge, huge focus lately and policies and procedures were changed out of necessity. School administrators have huge responsibilities in this respect. Unfairly, I even think. I was reading some other articles on this same story and in one of them, someone was quoted as saying that students today don't recognize bullying. I call bullshit on that. What school isn't teaching students about bullying?

Contrary to what the media would have you believe, school administrators don't generally wake up in the morning and plan evil ways to fuck up children's lives and skirt the law. It's obviously a peeve of mine. I'll shush up now. :)




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