RE: Bullying... the results

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tweakabelle -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 11:13:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Good for you! Not every middle school has one. Not every kid who is bullied can bench press. And not every bully backs down. Blaming the victim for the crimes of the bully is just another form of bullying. I'm not blaming the victims. I'm blaming those who don't show them how to stand up for themselves and who coddle them by telling them to rat out those mean kids (assuring they only get bullied more for being a snitch). Sorry it sounds to me as though you are blaming the victims. I don't recall you offering any suggestions on how to modify or punish the bullys' behaviour. Everything is about forcing the victim to change to violently resist bullying. So the bullys get off scot free and the victims have to learn that violence pays .... exactly the lessons we ought to be teaching children. NOT. However you have given me a way of understanding where your brutal, violence-obsessed compassionless view of life and the world (as outlined in your other posts on many threads) might have its origins. All of which tells me that the proposals you are advancing are precisely those that shouldn't be adopted. Where there is bullying, it has to be made clear to the bullies that their thuggish behaviour is totally unacceptable. There can be no relenting until that message has gotten through loud and clear and the bullys' behaviour changes. The last thing we ought to be teaching children is that violence (especially meaningless violence such as bullying), thuggery and intimidation works or delivers results. This applies equally to bullies and their victims.

tazzygirl -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 11:18:18 PM)
You think these kids dont already know that? That life isnt "fair"? That life is sometimes full of pain? Ask the girl who gets her hair pulled everyday how much pain she is in. Ask the boy who is ridiculed everyday in front of the class how his pain is coming along when he suffers from PTSD. Ask the one with the bloody nose or busted lip how fair life is. These children are victims. They already know life isnt fair. They already know no one listens to them. They already know far more than you do.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 11:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Sorry it sounds to me as though you are blaming the victims. I don't recall you offering any suggestions on how to modify or punish the bullys' behaviour. Everything is about forcing the victim to change to violently resist bullying. So the bullys get off scot free and the victims have to learn that violence pays .... exactly the lessons we ought to be teaching children. NOT. However you have given me a way of understanding where your brutal, violence-obsessed compassionless view of life and the world (as outlined in your other posts on many threads) might have its origins. All of which tells me that the proposals you are advancing are precisely those that shouldn't be adopted. Where there is bullying, it has to be made clear to the bullies that their thuggish behaviour is totally unacceptable. There can be no relenting until that message has gotten through loud and clear and the bullys' behaviour changes. The last thing we ought to be teaching children is that violence (especially meaningless violence such as bullying), thuggery and intimidation works or delivers results. This applies equally to bullies and their victims. I believe I've already stated I wasn't blaming the victims. I believe I've also very plainly stated that the bullies wouldn't get off scott-free if their targets stood up for themselves. There will always be bullies. Teaching kids that they can go run and tell and things will be "all better" is feeding them a line of shit.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 11:37:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl You think these kids dont already know that? That life isnt "fair"? That life is sometimes full of pain? Ask the girl who gets her hair pulled everyday how much pain she is in. Ask the boy who is ridiculed everyday in front of the class how his pain is coming along when he suffers from PTSD. Ask the one with the bloody nose or busted lip how fair life is. These children are victims. They already know life isnt fair. They already know no one listens to them. They already know far more than you do. Apparently you have reading comprehension troubles. They don't know "far more than I do," because I've already stated I was bullied growing up. And I stood up for myself. Wanna know a secret? I don't get bullied anymore. I stopped being a victim and stood up for myself and it's served me far better in my life than running and telling on someone. Sooner or later, these coddled kids will be in a situation where they can't just run and tell. Then what will they do?

tweakabelle -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/21/2012 11:56:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Sorry it sounds to me as though you are blaming the victims. I don't recall you offering any suggestions on how to modify or punish the bullys' behaviour. Everything is about forcing the victim to change to violently resist bullying. So the bullys get off scot free and the victims have to learn that violence pays .... exactly the lessons we ought to be teaching children. NOT. However you have given me a way of understanding where your brutal, violence-obsessed compassionless view of life and the world (as outlined in your other posts on many threads) might have its origins. All of which tells me that the proposals you are advancing are precisely those that shouldn't be adopted. Where there is bullying, it has to be made clear to the bullies that their thuggish behaviour is totally unacceptable. There can be no relenting until that message has gotten through loud and clear and the bullys' behaviour changes. The last thing we ought to be teaching children is that violence (especially meaningless violence such as bullying), thuggery and intimidation works or delivers results. This applies equally to bullies and their victims. I believe I've already stated I wasn't blaming the victims. I believe I've also very plainly stated that the bullies wouldn't get off scott-free if their targets stood up for themselves. There will always be bullies. Teaching kids that they can go run and tell and things will be "all better" is feeding them a line of shit. There will always be bullies if people adopt your proposals. Why? Because nothing you have offered even attempts to change the bullys' behaviour. If we can agree that the problem is the behaviour of bullies, then obviously the solution is to change their behaviour. Teaching individual children to "stand up for themselves" might change things for that individual child. It's nett effect will be that the bullies merely go off and find a different victim. At a wider level, nothing has changed. A sensible solution will seek to change/modify the bully's behaviour and teach them that violence is NOT the way to achieve their ends or to impress their peers. Until that happens proposals such as those you advance merely teach more children the delusion that violence is the way to achieve their ends. Your indulgence of the bully's behaviours legitimises that behaviour. The object is to eliminate that behaviour. While your approach might be consistent with the world view that you consistently advance here, it is not the kind of lesson I would want any child of mine to learn, or indeed, any child to learn. It replicates rather than eliminates the problem.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 12:34:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There will always be bullies if people adopt your proposals. Why? Because nothing you have offered even attempts to change the bullys' behaviour. If we can agree that the problem is the behaviour of bullies, then obviously the solution is to change their behaviour. What fantasy world do you live in? It sure sounds nice. You can no more change the behavior of every bully on the planet than you could stop all crime. Criminals are criminals because they break the law. Bullies are bullies because they can be and no one shows them otherwise. You simply cannot mandate how someone raises their child. Some get raised thinking it's cool to push people around, some don't. The only thing you can do is pull the victim aside and tell him to stand up for himself. Take away the easy targets and you take away the bully's power.

Kaliko -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 12:48:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There will always be bullies if people adopt your proposals. Why? Because nothing you have offered even attempts to change the bullys' behaviour. If we can agree that the problem is the behaviour of bullies, then obviously the solution is to change their behaviour. What fantasy world do you live in? It sure sounds nice. You can no more change the behavior of every bully on the planet than you could stop all crime. Criminals are criminals because they break the law. Bullies are bullies because they can be and no one shows them otherwise. You simply cannot mandate how someone raises their child. Some get raised thinking it's cool to push people around, some don't. The only thing you can do is pull the victim aside and tell him to stand up for himself. Take away the easy targets and you take away the bully's power. Bullying prevention programs focus on exactly that - taking away the bully's power. It's not about running to the teacher every time a student gets his feelings hurt. Bullying prevention programs teach children to recognize bullying for what it is, to remove the social support for the bully (the bystanders), and removing the ability for the bully to hold power over another student. So, correct, we can't change the behavior of all the bullies on the planet. We can, though, teach bystanders and would-be victims to remove the satisfaction of power and support that the bully receives as a result of his actions.

CastleRock32 -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 12:50:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ You seem to be forgetting that some of the kids who are bullied now end up as suicides. I guess those are freak injuries too. There's a reason why suicide has frequently been called the coward's way out. Are you really going to keep arguing that you aren't blaming the victim after this statement? You don't mean to be blaming the victim, and I'm sure you identify with them. But what about the kids that can't learn to lift weights? What about the ones who can't physically defend themselves? Fact is, we live in a supposedly civilized society. I'm convinced there must be a way for people to call on a higher authority rather than pick up a bigger gun when things get physical, or when they become emotionally damaging.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 1:09:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CastleRock32 Are you really going to keep arguing that you aren't blaming the victim after this statement? Yep. I didn't coin the phrase, just pointed it out. quote: ORIGINAL: CastleRock32 You don't mean to be blaming the victim, and I'm sure you identify with them. But what about the kids that can't learn to lift weights? What about the ones who can't physically defend themselves? Fact is, we live in a supposedly civilized society. I'm convinced there must be a way for people to call on a higher authority rather than pick up a bigger gun when things get physical, or when they become emotionally damaging. Anyone can "learn to lift weights." You go to the weight....and you lift it. Bullies count on the ones who claim they "can't."

kitkat105 -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 2:06:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Maybe we should stop coddling our kids and teach them life is hard and that sometimes they're going to hve to stand up for themselves. This anti-bullying campaign is lame. Soon we will be unable to say nothing even remotely negative without being labeled as a bully. Wow, how insightful DarqueMirror. You've clearly never been bullied nor known anyone close to you who has been bullied. People who complain about anti bullying are usually bullies so thanks for outing yourself like that. For example, my highschool years were a nightmare. An absolute nightmare. I spent from grade 8 - 12 being physically & emotionally harrassed, with a couple episodes of sexual harrassment. These same kids also bullied me outside of school in my own home town to the point I was scared to go outside. When I did "stand up for myself" it fell on deaf ears. The principle & headteacher did NOTHING. These boys never got a detention, never got suspended, nor a single punishment. It culminated when I had a near psychotic breakdown at the age of 18, 2 weeks before my year 12 finals. I dropped out. To this day, I still suffer from major depressive disorder, on top of extreme anxiety/agoraphobia. So yes, anti bullying campaignes ARE important. School districts SHOULD be made responsible. And $4 million is a small price to pay for medical and emotional compensation.

CastleRock32 -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 2:14:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: CastleRock32 Are you really going to keep arguing that you aren't blaming the victim after this statement? Yep. I didn't coin the phrase, just pointed it out. Actually, you didn't just point it out. You said, "there's a reason" implying that it's true. Or did you really not mean to imply that those kids are cowards?

tweakabelle -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 3:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There will always be bullies if people adopt your proposals. Why? Because nothing you have offered even attempts to change the bullys' behaviour. If we can agree that the problem is the behaviour of bullies, then obviously the solution is to change their behaviour. What fantasy world do you live in? It sure sounds nice. You can no more change the behavior of every bully on the planet than you could stop all crime. Criminals are criminals because they break the law. Bullies are bullies because they can be and no one shows them otherwise. You simply cannot mandate how someone raises their child. Some get raised thinking it's cool to push people around, some don't. The only thing you can do is pull the victim aside and tell him to stand up for himself. Take away the easy targets and you take away the bully's power. It may not be possible to completely eradicate bullying but that's not a reason for doing nothing to eradicate it. We can't eliminate car accidents completely either but that's no reason not to try to minimise the number of accidents, or to ensure cars are built to adequate safety standards. I find it odd that pointing out that we need to change the thuggish behaviour of bullies evokes such a hostile angry reaction that arrogantly dismisses the need to do anything about bullies' behaviours. You surely don't believe that there's only one way - your way - to address the issue do you? I wonder whether, in your insistence that we leave the bullies alone and instead inculcate violent responses into the victims, you are more interested in justifying your own responses and attitudes than in doing something about children being bullied ....... There is a wealth of options available to help change the behaviour of bullies, to deny them the power and recognition they crave that don't imply or involve either blaming victims or forcing them to change their behaviour. Violent thuggish behaviour is not natural in children, it is a learned behaviour and can be modified successfully. Teaching children that violence is a successful strategy to achieve their goals, as you advocate, tends to produce the opposite effect. You may find you need to have a really good think about why you have such a dogmatic black and white attitude towards this issue.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 6:25:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 Wow, how insightful DarqueMirror. You've clearly never been bullied nor known anyone close to you who has been bullied. People who complain about anti bullying are usually bullies so thanks for outing yourself like that. Wow, how illiterate kitkat...you've clearly not read any of my other posts (or at least failed to comprehend them). I've already detailed more than once how I was, in fact, bullied as a kid....until I stopped it. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 For example, my highschool years were a nightmare. An absolute nightmare. I spent from grade 8 - 12 being physically & emotionally harrassed, with a couple episodes of sexual harrassment. These same kids also bullied me outside of school in my own home town to the point I was scared to go outside. Oh...you want to compare notes? How about not only being afraid of going outside..how about to this day STILL having dreams of hiding out in the house you grew up in, hoping to hell you locked all the doors and windows and that no one saw you enter in the hopes they'd eventually leave? How about that? Need more or am I "qualified" now? quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 When I did "stand up for myself" it fell on deaf ears. The principle & headteacher did NOTHING. These boys never got a detention, never got suspended, nor a single punishment. Sounds to me like you didn't stand up at all. Deaf ears? Fuck the ears. Knock the shit out of them. THAT is how you stand up when things get bad. No one will listen when you 'taddle?' Then YOU have to become the one THEY taddle on. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 It culminated when I had a near psychotic breakdown at the age of 18, 2 weeks before my year 12 finals. I dropped out. To this day, I still suffer from major depressive disorder, on top of extreme anxiety/agoraphobia. We ain't even gonna touch the tip of the tip of the iceberg that are all my issues. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 So yes, anti bullying campaignes ARE important. School districts SHOULD be made responsible. And $4 million is a small price to pay for medical and emotional compensation. No they aren't. They are a band-aid to try in vain to show the school is doing something. What needs to be done is to teach the victims not to be victims. It works for women against would-be rapists, doesn't it? Go into a women's self defense class and tell THEM they shouldn't be learning self-defense to stand up to a potential attacker. Same concept...just another form of 'bullying.' The point -- make yourself as hard a target as possible and you won't be a victim.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 6:26:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CastleRock32 Actually, you didn't just point it out. You said, "there's a reason" implying that it's true. Or did you really not mean to imply that those kids are cowards? Actually I did just point it out. Kinda like saying every stereotype starts somewhere -- same concept. But yes, I do agree that it is the coward's way out.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 6:31:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I find it odd that pointing out that we need to change the thuggish behaviour of bullies evokes such a hostile angry reaction that arrogantly dismisses the need to do anything about bullies' behaviours. You surely don't believe that there's only one way - your way - to address the issue do you? I wonder whether, in your insistence that we leave the bullies alone What posts were you reading? How is KNOCKING THE SHIT out of a bully "leaving the bully alone?" Explain that one to me please...I can't wait to hear it. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle and instead inculcate violent responses into the victims, you are more interested in justifying your own responses and attitudes than in doing something about children being bullied ....... Because what people are doing in schools amounts to "get the victims to taddle...that always works!". Well, I and many others here have pointed out numerous examples where that does not work at all. You tell, no one cares. They find out you told, they just bully harder. They will bully until. you. stop. them. There is only one "language" bullies understand, and it ain't "taddling." quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There is a wealth of options available to help change the behaviour of bullies, to deny them the power and recognition they crave that don't imply or involve either blaming victims or forcing them to change their behaviour. Violent thuggish behaviour is not natural in children, it is a learned behaviour and can be modified successfully. Teaching children that violence is a successful strategy to achieve their goals, as you advocate, tends to produce the opposite effect. It can maybe be modified in some. But again, there will always be bullies. You can't eradicate it. So insisting that the victims taddle on the bullies instead of standing up for themselves will make them perpetual victims always looking for someone else to step in and save them.

tazzygirl -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 7:17:24 AM)
DM You were never bullied.. your posts all scream that fact very clearly. You are simply here to stir the pot. Thats when you show up, and all your posts are aimed at pissing as many people off for as long as you can. You claimed to have lifted weights in middle school, then changed your story to high school. Inconsistencies will catch you every time.

kalikshama -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 7:18:41 AM)
quote: Who is Ender Wiggin ? The protagonist in "Ender's Game." His philosophy was that he needed to stop not just the current incidence of bullying at school, but all future incidents, and so he brutally beat the ringleader, continuing to kick him after he was down, and years later learned the bully died in the hospital. This theme repeats.

kalikshama -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 7:34:25 AM)
quote: What needs to be done is to teach the victims not to be victims. It works for women against would-be rapists, doesn't it? Go into a women's self defense class and tell THEM they shouldn't be learning self-defense to stand up to a potential attacker. Same concept...just another form of 'bullying.' The point -- make yourself as hard a target as possible and you won't be a victim. I agree that the school was negligent and so the verdict just but also believe that teaching kids not to be victims is essential to anti-bullying campaigns. Not sure how to go about that because I don't advocate reacting to violence with violence at school and also I don't see what a victim of cyber bullying could do other than report. http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/prevention/index.html Preventing cyberbullying Educating the kids about the consequences (losing their ISP or IM accounts) helps. Teaching them to respect others and to take a stand against bullying of all kinds helps too. How can you stop it once it starts? Because their motives differ, the solutions and responses to each type of cyberbullying incident has to differ too. Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all" when cyberbullying is concerned. Only two of the types of cyberbullies have something in common with the traditional schoolyard bully. Experts who understand schoolyard bullying often misunderstand cyberbullying, thinking it is just another method of bullying. But the motives and the nature of cybercommunications, as well as the demographic and profile of a cyberbully differ from their offline counterpart. What is the school's role in this? When schools try and get involved by disciplining the student for cyberbullying actions that took place off-campus and outside of school hours, they are often sued for exceeding their authority and violating the student's free speech right. They also, often lose. Schools can be very effective brokers in working with the parents to stop and remedy cyberbullying situations. They can also educate the students on cyberethics and the law. If schools are creative, they can sometimes avoid the claim that their actions exceeded their legal authority for off-campus cyberbullying actions. We recommend that a provision is added to the school's acceptable use policy reserving the right to discipline the student for actions taken off-campus if they are intended to have an effect on a student or they adversely affect the safety and well-being of student while in school. This makes it a contractual, not a constitutional, issue. What's the Parents' Role in This? Parents need to be the one trusted place kids can go when things go wrong online and offline. Yet they often are the one place kids avoid when things go wrong online. Why? Parents tend to overreact. Most children will avoid telling their parents about a cyberbullying incident fearing they will only make things worse. (Calling the other parents, the school, blaming the victim or taking away Internet privileges.) Unfortunately, they also sometimes underreact, and rarely get it "just right." (You can read more about this in "Not Too Hot, Not Too Cold! Goldilocks and the CyberParents") Parents need to be supportive of your child during this time. You may be tempted to give the "stick and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you" lecture, but words and cyberattacks can wound a child easily and have a lasting effect. These attacks follow them into your otherwise safe home and wherever they go online. And when up to 700 million accomplices can be recruited to help target or humiliate your child, the risk of emotional pain is very real, and very serious. Don't brush it off. Let the school know so the guidance counselor can keep an eye out for in-school bullying and for how your child is handling things. You may want to notify your pediatrician, family counselor or clergy for support if things progress. It is crucial that you are there to provide the necessary support and love. Make them feel secure. Children have committed suicide after having been cyberbullied, and in Japan one young girl killed another after a cyberbullying incident. Take it seriously. Parents also need to understand that a child is just as likely to be a cyberbully as a victim of cyberbullying and often go back and forth between the two roles during one incident. They may not even realize that they are seen as a cyberbully. (You can learn more about this under the "Inadvertent Cyberbully" profile of a cyberbully.) Read more: http://www.stopcyberbullying.org/prevention/parents_role.html

Moonhead -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 7:37:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 Wow, how insightful DarqueMirror. You've clearly never been bullied nor known anyone close to you who has been bullied. People who complain about anti bullying are usually bullies so thanks for outing yourself like that. Wow, how illiterate kitkat...you've clearly not read any of my other posts (or at least failed to comprehend them). I've already detailed more than once how I was, in fact, bullied as a kid....until I stopped it. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 For example, my highschool years were a nightmare. An absolute nightmare. I spent from grade 8 - 12 being physically & emotionally harrassed, with a couple episodes of sexual harrassment. These same kids also bullied me outside of school in my own home town to the point I was scared to go outside. Oh...you want to compare notes? How about not only being afraid of going outside..how about to this day STILL having dreams of hiding out in the house you grew up in, hoping to hell you locked all the doors and windows and that no one saw you enter in the hopes they'd eventually leave? How about that? Need more or am I "qualified" now? quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 When I did "stand up for myself" it fell on deaf ears. The principle & headteacher did NOTHING. These boys never got a detention, never got suspended, nor a single punishment. Sounds to me like you didn't stand up at all. Deaf ears? Fuck the ears. Knock the shit out of them. THAT is how you stand up when things get bad. No one will listen when you 'taddle?' Then YOU have to become the one THEY taddle on. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 It culminated when I had a near psychotic breakdown at the age of 18, 2 weeks before my year 12 finals. I dropped out. To this day, I still suffer from major depressive disorder, on top of extreme anxiety/agoraphobia. We ain't even gonna touch the tip of the tip of the iceberg that are all my issues. quote: ORIGINAL: kitkat105 So yes, anti bullying campaignes ARE important. School districts SHOULD be made responsible. And $4 million is a small price to pay for medical and emotional compensation. No they aren't. They are a band-aid to try in vain to show the school is doing something. What needs to be done is to teach the victims not to be victims. It works for women against would-be rapists, doesn't it? Go into a women's self defense class and tell THEM they shouldn't be learning self-defense to stand up to a potential attacker. Same concept...just another form of 'bullying.' The point -- make yourself as hard a target as possible and you won't be a victim. We only have your word for any of this, and it's hard to think of anything that's more worthless on the internet, frankly.

lovmuffin -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/22/2012 7:39:49 AM)
The ladies and Castle are right for the most part Darque. Standing up worked for you and me and does so whatever percentage of the time. But as was stated on some posts above when one victim stands up to solve his individual problem then the bully goes on to the next kid. And as I've stated before some kids are not capable. If ya can't get the bully to change the behavior then put him in a school for problem kids or expel the SOB or whatever. I don't have all the answers but many of these little fuckers just grow up to be criminals and there's no hope for them anyway. What ever it takes to get rid of them I'm all for it. Far be it for me to agree with tazzy and tweak, now I have crushed my image. See what you've done [8D]

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