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Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 12:58:41 AM

tweakabelle

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This is a disturbing video and account of the death of an illegal Mexican immigrant at the hands of the US Border Patrol.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31152.htm

I'm not going to comment as my own country has a pretty appalling record in treating illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. But if I was American and interested in human rights, I would be watching it with mounting concern. Apparently there has been 8 questionable deaths at the hands of the Border Patrol in the last 2 years. No charges have been filed relating to any of these deaths.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/23/2012 1:02:24 AM >

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 1:12:42 AM

DarqueMirror

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I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.

As the term "illegal" is in their name.... breaking the law is not without risk.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 2

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 1:40:07 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
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Can we blame simple people wanting to escape a narco state created by the USA?
Disregard for human rights is just as criminal.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 3

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 1:57:04 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.

As the term "illegal" is in their name.... breaking the law is not without risk.

"John 8:7" (King James Bible version)

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

If you have NEVER done something illegal in your life, than by all means, attack the illegal alien. If you have jay-walked in a town/city that has that out lawed, you can no longer count yourself as 'innocent' of a crime. If you sped over the posted speed limit by even 0.1 miles per hour, you broke the law. If a check of yours 'bounced', or 'drew over your bank account', that is technically fraud, and illegal. And if you did one of these or others, and not knew it was illegal; in most states, that too is not an acceptable defense.

I've watched quite a few that hate 'illegal aliens' and than jump into their cars, drive down the road over the speed limit, fail to use your turn signals and even do a 'rolling stop' through posted stop signs. A person caught for any of these crimes, or 'crossing the border illegally' is INNOCENT, until proven GUILTY in a court of law. Likewise, the US Constitution applies to ALL PERSONS found under its domain of control. So the person crossed the border illegally. What justification can you state that shows those federal agents had in treating the suspect to such a level of torture? Someone on the ground in the fetal position is not exactly resisting arrest. If those federal agents are to dumb to understand that concept, they shouldn't be wearing a badge.

The reason I saw this, is because we as Americans should be more of the 'forgiving nature' rather than what our Founding Fathers hated of old Europe: "Eye for an Eye" and/or "You are guilty until you can show your innocence".

< Message edited by joether -- 4/23/2012 2:02:56 AM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 4

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 1:57:29 AM

DarqueMirror

Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Can we blame simple people wanting to escape a narco state created by the USA?
Disregard for human rights is just as criminal.

Narco state created by the USA? Try by the country's own citizens. And yes, we can. They made their beds, they should lie in them and stop breaking our laws to come here and screw up our country.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 5

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 1:59:59 AM

DarqueMirror

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
"John 8:7" (King James Bible version)

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Separation of church and state. Scripture has no place in this debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If you have NEVER done something illegal in your life, than by all means, attack the illegal alien.

I've never snuck into a country illegally. How's that? Furthermore I've never driven drunk in a country I snuck illegally into and killed someone as a result.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 6

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 2:17:16 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
"John 8:7" (King James Bible version)

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Separation of church and state. Scripture has no place in this debate.

You really do lack wisdom, dont you? The manner I am using the Holy Bible reference is not a religious one, but of consideration of circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
If you have NEVER done something illegal in your life, than by all means, attack the illegal alien.

I've never snuck into a country illegally. How's that? Furthermore I've never driven drunk in a country I snuck illegally into and killed someone as a result.

These two sentences show to me just how little you even understand what I'm talking about. By the way, who did the guy kill? You mention he hopped the border and killed someone? Got a name and evidence to go along with your arguement?

(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 7

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 4:41:47 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.
As the term "illegal" is in their name.... breaking the law is not without risk.

"John 8:7" (King James Bible version)
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
If you have NEVER done something illegal in your life, than by all means, attack the illegal alien. If you have jay-walked in a town/city that has that out lawed, you can no longer count yourself as 'innocent' of a crime. If you sped over the posted speed limit by even 0.1 miles per hour, you broke the law. If a check of yours 'bounced', or 'drew over your bank account', that is technically fraud, and illegal. And if you did one of these or others, and not knew it was illegal; in most states, that too is not an acceptable defense.
I've watched quite a few that hate 'illegal aliens' and than jump into their cars, drive down the road over the speed limit, fail to use your turn signals and even do a 'rolling stop' through posted stop signs. A person caught for any of these crimes, or 'crossing the border illegally' is INNOCENT, until proven GUILTY in a court of law. Likewise, the US Constitution applies to ALL PERSONS found under its domain of control. So the person crossed the border illegally. What justification can you state that shows those federal agents had in treating the suspect to such a level of torture? Someone on the ground in the fetal position is not exactly resisting arrest. If those federal agents are to dumb to understand that concept, they shouldn't be wearing a badge.
The reason I saw this, is because we as Americans should be more of the 'forgiving nature' rather than what our Founding Fathers hated of old Europe: "Eye for an Eye" and/or "You are guilty until you can show your innocence".

Equating illegally entering the US to rolling through a stop sign, check fraud (and many banks do offer 24-hour grace for you to get the funds into your account; not to mention there are penalties that can quickly add up if you do fail to have adequate funds), speeding, failure to use turn signals, etc., is ridiculous on its front, middle and back. Quoting the Bible and then stating that it wasn't a religious reference is also ridiculous. Why would you use a religious text?

That video is pathetic. You get nothing of context. You don't see the entire incident. You see the end. Did the USBP use excessive force or use force excessively? Those are not the same issue, and it sure looks as if the latter is the case. What led to the altercation? What happened prior to Mr. Hernandez being tased? If you were to see only the final punch in a KO boxing match, it would sure look like one guy dominated the other. But, without seeing the entire event, you may not have any actual idea on how the match was fought.

So, what precipitated this encounter? What happened prior to the video? Having his widow talk about the "insensitivity" of the USBP and their not considering that Mr. Hernandez was leaving behind his family, is a lame attempt at emotional influence.

I have issues with illegal immigration and separate issues with legal immigration. And, I will paraphrase Glenn Beck's broadcast beliefs (from a few years ago): We need to close the backdoors (illegal immigration), and make the front doors (legal means of immigration) bigger.

Yes, our immigration policies need overhauled to improve flow-through. There has to be an easier way for foreigners to gain legal immigration status. We need to streamline the immigration process increase the numbers we allow in and to improve the speed at which the increased traffic gains legal immigrant status.

_____________________________

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A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 8

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 4:50:27 AM

DarqueMirror

Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
You really do lack wisdom, dont you? The manner I am using the Holy Bible reference is not a religious one, but of consideration of circumstances.

I don't care how you used it. Don't throw scripture at me in a debate on illegal immigration. It has no place regardless of how it's used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
These two sentences show to me just how little you even understand what I'm talking about. By the way, who did the guy kill? You mention he hopped the border and killed someone? Got a name and evidence to go along with your arguement?

I didn't say that particular guy did I? No I didn't. I said illegal immigrants. Look up the stats...it happens. Sure, citizens do it too, but they are citizens...here legally...we have to deal with them as best we can..meaning we have our own problems, we don't need to (illegally) import others.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 9

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 5:10:21 AM

MrBukani

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Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Can we blame simple people wanting to escape a narco state created by the USA?
Disregard for human rights is just as criminal.

Narco state created by the USA? Try by the country's own citizens. And yes, we can. They made their beds, they should lie in them and stop breaking our laws to come here and screw up our country.

You have the largest dope demand in the world and mexico is supplying your need for that. And since colombian mafia is near dead by american supported military actions. Mexico stepped in and filled the void. Simple equasion. You created the problem yourself. You should stop breaking international law, come of your high horse and stop with the mock up invasions of the muslim oil world. The same you are saying of mexicans, iraqis are saying of you and afghans and koreans and vietnamese. Get real, americans love drugs and they aint goin nowhere.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/23/2012 5:16:46 AM >

(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 10

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 5:39:08 AM

tazzygirl

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And yet you seem to have immigration problems in the Netherlands as well. Care to hazard a guess why? Is yours drug related too?

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 6:36:50 AM

MrBukani

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Joined: 4/18/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And yet you seem to have immigration problems in the Netherlands as well. Care to hazard a guess why? Is yours drug related too?

I am not saying america's immigration problem is all because of drugs, but it has played a big part in turning Mexico in a narcostate. Our last immigration problem is created by european unification right now. Imagine south and mid america joining in one union with the USA. The immigration would be massive. That's why we have an enormous amount of poor eastern europeans moving to the west as we speak. Before that it was the turks and morrocans who were invited when the economy was booming, in the seventies eighties and nineties. It was the big companies recruiting them, that are to blame. They could have recruited more in Italy, Spain and other european countries. But there was a reason not to do so.
Now the drugs have very little to do with immigration here. It actually benefits us enormously because of the cannabis tourists visiting Amsterdam every year.

I think it's a shame how Mexico is played, I wouldnt even go on a holiday there if I didnt have mexican friends, with all the kidnappings and raging violence. By now a big part of Mid America is infested with crime. MS-13 is probably the biggest criminal organisation in the world with an estimated 100.000 members. I even saw the first crewtags in Holland 2 years ago.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 12

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 8:07:35 AM

tazzygirl

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Most illegals who come to the US do so for money... it has very little to do with drugs, other than their own country is involved so deeply in that one cash trade that they feel no compulsion to do anything else to develop their own country.

Its time Mexico accepted the blame for the economy it has developed. The only one who turned Mexico into a narcostate is the Mexican government.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 13

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 8:57:46 AM

DarqueMirror

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Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its time Mexico accepted the blame for the economy it has developed. The only one who turned Mexico into a narcostate is the Mexican government.

Bingo. Narco state my ass. The people of that country are like the people of this country. They got what they deserve/made happen just like we do. We are not responsible for their problems, so we're not the ones to fix them. No other country created our increasingly fucked up government but us. So we have to fix it (which we won't).

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 14

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 10:06:47 AM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.

As the term "illegal" is in their name.... breaking the law is not without risk.

So are you saying law enforcement should be able to fire at will at anyone they think might be breaking a law?
Thought we had trials and juries for a reason...

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RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 10:52:31 AM

erieangel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

I'm more concerned by all the questionable deaths of citizens at the hands of illegal immigrants.

As the term "illegal" is in their name.... breaking the law is not without risk.

So are you saying law enforcement should be able to fire at will at anyone they think might be breaking a law?
Thought we had trials and juries for a reason...

Not "anyone" just the illegal Aliens.

(in reply to SoftBonds)

Post #: 16

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 10:53:54 AM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Most illegals who come to the US do so for money... it has very little to do with drugs, other than their own country is involved so deeply in that one cash trade that they feel no compulsion to do anything else to develop their own country.

Its time Mexico accepted the blame for the economy it has developed. The only one who turned Mexico into a narcostate is the Mexican government.

Off course they are all economic refugees. But basically you are denying three things. The fact that Mexico turned into a narcostate does not increase immigration?
And America had nothing to do with killing off the colombian mafia, so the mexican kartels could take over. And deportation of hundreds MS 13 criminal illegals, turned El Salvador into a gangland makin them international.
I am not saying you should not deport criminals. I am saying some problems are created as side effects you do not control and will bite you back in the arse.
And since the USA wants the War on Drugs to continue, YOU yes YOU create your own problems. Supply will always meet demand. Oh and remember since you liberated Afghanistan they have become the largest heroine producer in the world again. And that afghan black is hitting your own streets harder then ever.

But deny any responsibility, who cares?
USA plays world police, but when they fuck up it's not their fault?

I think Europe is just as responsible for following gung ho americanism.
But that's probably because I consider myself a citizen of the world first and a dutchie second. I do acknowledge the problems Holland created abroad for selfish reasons.
Like the euro.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 17

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 11:08:32 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is a disturbing video and account of the death of an illegal Mexican immigrant at the hands of the US Border Patrol.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31152.htm

I'm not going to comment as my own country has a pretty appalling record in treating illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. But if I was American and interested in human rights, I would be watching it with mounting concern. Apparently there has been 8 questionable deaths at the hands of the Border Patrol in the last 2 years. No charges have been filed relating to any of these deaths.

The Border Patrol are federal cops, which means that they think they have a better pot to piss in. They think they can do whatever they want, which is part of the reason why some people would like to keep federal power in check.

My boss' sister has a ranch down there near the border, and from what he's told me, the Border Patrol do more damage to their property than the illegals do.

That's the whole problem with taking away states' rights. Too many misguided people believe in giving absolute power to the Feds, but all that does is create a bigger tyranny.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 18

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 11:39:43 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Off course they are all economic refugees. But basically you are denying three things. The fact that Mexico turned into a narcostate does not increase immigration?
And America had nothing to do with killing off the colombian mafia, so the mexican kartels could take over. And deportation of hundreds MS 13 criminal illegals, turned El Salvador into a gangland makin them international.

Where did I deny any of those things? However, you cannot blame one country for what another country has become unless you are speaking of an invasion.

quote:

I am not saying you should not deport criminals. I am saying some problems are created as side effects you do not control and will bite you back in the arse.

And I am saying that by blaming the US you are excusing Mexico's part in their own problems. That is how you are coming across.

quote:

And since the USA wants the War on Drugs to continue, YOU yes YOU create your own problems. Supply will always meet demand. Oh and remember since you liberated Afghanistan they have become the largest heroine producer in the world again. And that afghan black is hitting your own streets harder then ever.

And what is Mexico doing about the supply problem? What efforts are the undertaking on their side of the border? I can demand cocaine all day long, for example, but if there is no supply, then I am sol. Its like the chicken and the egg squabble. Dry up one side, the other disappears just because there is no longer any money in it. Shoving all the blame onto the US isnt the answer either.

I am in no way excusing the US, we definitely have our own problems. But each country is responsible for their own actions, just like each individual.

quote:

But deny any responsibility, who cares?

No one has denied responsibility, however, they are only responsible for what their own governments allow, unless that government is toppled and forced to comply. Dont recall seeing that in the headlines about Mexico.. yet... however, that government is definitely being controlled, from within.

quote:

USA plays world police, but when they fuck up it's not their fault?

No one said the US is innocent... however, they are only responsible for their own actions. Its time people started holding Mexico responsible for what that country has obviously allowed to a long time.

Offering up supply and demand as an excuse is just bullshit. Supply dries up, no demand. Demand dries up, no need to supply. It really is that simple.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MrBukani)

Post #: 19

RE: Murder at the Border? - 4/23/2012 11:59:44 AM

MrBukani

Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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I will return to the OP after this. You are right countries and people are responsible themselves as well. But if we really want to solve problems we have to look across the border.
Just like Holland pushed the euro the hardest and our people voted against it, it was still pushed through. The dutch captains of industry pushed this because we are an export country. And now we have the euro crisis wich was unavoidable, even without the american bankin en debt crisis who started the snowball effect.

The only way we are gonna stop mass migration is if we help those countries in need, to build a good economy.
I think it's in the West own interest to do so. How are we gonna achieve that? I don't have all the answers.
But the third world countries that are reasonably stable, are makin great progress with more then 5% marketgrowth each year like Brasil and Uganda. That is the solution to unwanted massmigration of economic refugees. Let them grow their economic wealth. In the end it will benefit us both ways. Less migration and more valuable tradepartners.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 20

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