RE: releasing a slave

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OsideGirl -> RE: releasing a slave (5/2/2012 3:09:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: girl91 In the end we will never know the full story. There are three parts to each story, his, hers and the truth. If he needs to man up, than she needs to woman up. In the end your responsible for yourself, I don't care if your the best slave/sub in the world. Cutting herself only proves she isn't emotionally stable, and don't need to be in any relationship. She needs to work on herself. He's already said that she's on medication and under psychiatric care. It's already been proven that she's emotionally unstable. Judging from his comments, she may not be capable of doing the "woman up". After a 20 year relationship, I personally don't feel that you should dump someone suffering from mental illness on the street. Arrange an assisted living house, help her get disability.....but just don't toss them out like they're garbage.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: releasing a slave (5/2/2012 5:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alecta quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Which raises a question for the Dominants/Masters in the crowd. If a submissive /slave agrees to be financially dependent on you without asking you what happens down the line - you can count on the fact that they are either stupid, or mentally incapacitated in some way, shape or form. I disagree on this point, even if stupid includes "overly trusting of the Dom/me", or "believe the commitment and arrangement to last forever". I uphold the view that it is the Dom/me's responsibility to cover the "what happens if things change or don't work out" discussion, not the sub/slave's; just as it is the Dom/me's responsibility to look after the slave's well-being in general, and to say "stop, you've had enough" as is appropriate. I think you misunderstood my point by taking it out of context. I state up front that regardless of role, this is an individual's responsibility. I then go on to explain that if the submissive/slave doesn't raise the issue, then the Dominant/Master is taking advantage of a situation - i.e., at that point the Dominant MUST raise the issue of what happens if things don't work out, otherwise they are exploiting someone. And I believe that conversation needs to occur up front and be explicit, not some sort of "trust me" type discussion. I hope this makes clear that my overall point is that this discussion is BOTH parties responsibility. And I agree with you if the submissive/slave does NOT raise it, it is incumbent on the Dominant/Master to do so. Where we disagree is that I do NOT agree that the submissive/slave has NO responsibility whatsoever to raise this issue. Why would this ever be the case? Is a submissive/slave not responsible for negotiating the terms of what they are agreeing to? And why would that not include what happens should things end, and possibly even end on bad terms. Why would this not be a submissive/slave's responsibility to find out, no different from any other aspect of negotiating a longer term relationship and what the boundaries are? Why, if someone is financially dependent on someone, would concern for long term financial well-being not be their personal responsibility? Maybe I misunderstand your point.

Alecta -> RE: releasing a slave (5/2/2012 6:05:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Where we disagree is that I do NOT agree that the submissive/slave has NO responsibility whatsoever to raise this issue. Why would this ever be the case? Is a submissive/slave not responsible for negotiating the terms of what they are agreeing to? (I snipped for simplicity and continuity, not context) I think I misunderstood the post I replied to, in which I thought you maintained that a submissive is solely responsible for negotiating their own conditions before entering service and that the Dom/mes should be wary of those to who do not think to do so; whereas my point is that it is the Dom/mes responsibility to raise the subject and negotiation, not the slave's. I wasn't referring to "trust me" situations, I was referring to the reality of how people are when they enter BDSM relationships-- sometimes the relationship aspect is so prominent that they forget, or deliberately neglect. Who wants to start a relationship already imagining its end? I know we disagree on how much responsibility a sub/slave has in negotiating their situation. I feel that a slave/sub is responsible for agreeing to whatever stipulations set down and have the right to negotiate over the terms if they choose, but it is the Dom/me's responsibility to think of the things that need to be addressed and see that they are properly thought over and acted upon by both parties. The sub/slave holds the Dom/me as the one in charge, in control, the one who "knows better", therefore, that is how we must act. This is how I personally feel and do not expect it to be agreeable to all: A person has the responsibility of looking out for themselves. A slave trades that burden to the Dom/me and serves the Dom/me in return. This makes the slave only responsible for the things the Dom/me puts down explicitly as their responsibility. Everything else is the Dom/me's responsibility because those were the implicit terms of the power exchange.

LadyPact -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 2:07:24 AM)
I'm kind of glad that the discussion is turning back to these issues. I was thinking earlier tonight that a discussion of 'when it's over' would have been a great opportunity for people to discuss their various views on it. I think some were rather turned off by the 'how to get rid of someone after twenty years' bit. The distaste for the OP's situation in particular may have kept some folks away. I'm quoting CP here because it was her post that got these things bouncing around in My head. quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt To me, the Master(Mistress)/slave contract is a lifetime FAMILY agreement. Don't get me wrong, this does not mean the slave must live with the Master, or always belong to the Master, it means that both parties have some responsibility toward one another until death. My boykin knows should he ever need me for anything, I am there, for the rest of his life. For the rest of his life he and I will have some sort of relationship. He's reaching an age, at some point he might not be able to serve me in the ways he does now. That doesn't mean a thing in terms of MY responsibilities to HIM. It's an emotional responsibility I took on that I don't get to wash my hands and be done with, unless he would do something so reprehensible I had no choice. And frankly, I am not worried about that. I chose well. Although a slave may be released, the Master always has a responsibility toward that person (JMO). It is not unlike the relationship between parent and child. You know? Home is where, when you have no where else to go, they have to take you in. B/c it's FAMILY. So no, you don't just get to wave your hands and your no longer wanted slave disappears. So sorry. Unfortunately, given the tenor of the OP's post, I seriously doubt he will step up to the plate at this late date and own up to his responsibilities. This entire thread makes me sad that so many don't seem to understand how serious it is to enter into a M/s relationship. Again, JMO, YMMV and all that crap. Before anything else, I want to say that I am happy to see you feel this way. From everything you have said here, it is quite obvious that you consider your responsibilities a very high priority. When in the context of a thread where one has to wonder about the OP's beliefs about such responsibility, it was a pleasure to read. However, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you in cases of dissolution. Without a doubt, if the dynamic is lifelong, the issue of responsibility is a bit more in tune with what you say above, so let's not tread that territory. We're also of the same mind when the dissolution (or during the time period afterward) is due to something completely unforgivable and association between the parties is damaging or toxic. Where we disagree are in the areas of length of responsibility after release and the closest similarity to another type of relationship. Naturally, there are several factors that come into play on this. One of those being the length of the dynamic itself, how deep was the level of authority or submission that must be dealt with, and variables according to individual strengths and weaknesses. My position is that it is absolutely the Dominant's responsibility to assist during the transition period. I'm not attempting to stereotype here, but I tend to have the impression that it is harder to stop submitting to someone's authority than it is to stop having authority for personal dynamics. Forgive the crude term, but the best that I can come up with at this late hour is reprogramming. Taking back those areas of power that were previously surrendered to another isn't something that you snap your fingers and do. There are the financial matters that have to be sorted out. Of course, the necessities for a new start as far as a new place to live, transferring insurance, etc. While this is over and above what equal partners tend to do when they separate, I still see the parting of the ways as being closer to a divorce. Marriage is considered a contract that those entering into it hope for it to be a lifetime commitment, but does often dissolve and people to move on. For us dynamic folks, ours should be more like divorce plus because we do consider the responsibility that we have taken for them and what is necessary to get them back in the direction of where they were before they began submitting to us. When that has been reestablished, is when I feel the responsibility ends. It's not a blank check that can be cashed in at any time. Some folks dissolve a dynamic and turn out being very good friends where they are willing be emotionally supportive years later. Others recognize that there is a reasonable amount of time for the s-type to need additional help as they process not being in service any more, but there is a time that comes to an end.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 3:31:17 AM)
~FR~ I am one that will never disagree that an individual must take responsibility and is ultimately accountable for there actions. In the case of a "slave", that term is so varied that we do not know the mental condition of that person as far as issues of co-dependancy and inter-dependancy. If conditioning was used over 20 years of service, then it is likely the slave has no idea on how to operate on their own. Depending on how deeply the training and conditioning went, it would be similar to putting a child into the world with no guidance. In these instances, it is my opinion that the owner still has the responsibility to assist them in integrating themselves back into society as an individual. My property has a safety net, an account that she can access, though we have had to tap into it since some issues have arisen. That account will be put back up to where it needs to be. I also know that since I have used IE techniques in her training and conditioning, there will never be a quick severe of ownership, it would be irresponsible of me. If I have trained and conditioned her so that her self determination is suppressed, then I am also responsble for assisting to reverse that should the need ever arise. Back to the OP, just ask yourself what is the decent way to end any 20 year old relationship, that you were the leader of, had all the financial power in, and that you were completely in charge of? Take into account her medical issues, not as an excuse, but as a reason to handle the situation in a certain fashion. Live well, Orion

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 5:01:04 AM)
I very much enjoyed reading your take on this. As always, your perspective is well thought out and insightful and gives much food for thought. In my mind, the position of s-type within the context of a ltr automatically means a great deal of internal enslavement. For someone who has a strong desire to please and submit and give up control, the enslavement (and thus loss of autonomy) is quite insidious over time. I use the word insidious, which has a very negative connotation, and it's not negative at all if the couple is together for life. But, you know, most people are not together for life. In any case, if the s-type's dominate counterpart has even a small clue, within the course of 20 years they would be able to quite effectively shape the person to their own needs and desires. Which means that person's autonomy is in every real sense, lost. I know, I have been through this. It's takes awhile to get it back (it took me 6 -12 months). Now, relationships end for many reasons. Some do not end on a positive note, others you can remain friends, and then others you take out a restraining order. So of course, depending on circumstances, you can't always be friends for life. But to me, if you do have that, then remnants of the D/s relationship still exist on an emotional level. Which means to a certain extent, you are always the D-type to the s-type (or vice versa). I'm saying the s-type can always "come home" to the D-type in an emotional sense. I don't mean you put the original relationship back together. I mean you are there for them. Just as I am sure in many ways, the s-type is always there for the D-type. When you add major medical issues into this break up mix, the D-types responsibility increases. BTW: If the tables were turned and it was the D-type with medical issues, again, I think the s-types responsibilities increase as well. This is what is morally correct in my mind. Now, I've been treated very badly (I won't go into the full gore, but it was nasty) during the break up of my 20 year marriage. I left that relationship with nothing, no home, no car, minimal possessions. My only concern was getting away (it was very much my choice, not his). I did take my daughter who was only 13 at the time (my son was attending an art HS in chgo and needed to stay there). He came down and took my daughter out of school and back to chgo without telling me. I won't expand on these details except to say I know what it is like to be treated as a mere possession, and to have my children treated as mere pawns. I know what it is like to have to start over from scratch in literally every way, emotionally, financially, you name it. All I can say is, I was treated so badly during this break up that it did help me sever myself emotionally. I finally saw his true colors, and realized I had been emotionally abused and manipulated for years. So I can relate to the OP's situation all to vividly. I would not have treated a dog the way I was treated, and at this point I realize this is perhaps a subject I cannot be terribly objective about. I can only hope by airing my past very dirty laundry in this way that the OP stops and thinks about his responsibilities and gets this woman the help she so desperately needs.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 5:09:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf ~FR~ I am one that will never disagree that an individual must take responsibility and is ultimately accountable for there actions. In the case of a "slave", that term is so varied that we do not know the mental condition of that person as far as issues of co-dependancy and inter-dependancy. If conditioning was used over 20 years of service, then it is likely the slave has no idea on how to operate on their own. Depending on how deeply the training and conditioning went, it would be similar to putting a child into the world with no guidance. In these instances, it is my opinion that the owner still has the responsibility to assist them in integrating themselves back into society as an individual. My property has a safety net, an account that she can access, though we have had to tap into it since some issues have arisen. That account will be put back up to where it needs to be. I also know that since I have used IE techniques in her training and conditioning, there will never be a quick severe of ownership, it would be irresponsible of me. If I have trained and conditioned her so that her self determination is suppressed, then I am also responsble for assisting to reverse that should the need ever arise. Back to the OP, just ask yourself what is the decent way to end any 20 year old relationship, that you were the leader of, had all the financial power in, and that you were completely in charge of? Take into account her medical issues, not as an excuse, but as a reason to handle the situation in a certain fashion. Live well, Orion In ending ANY relationship, a person needs to ask themselves: How do I behave in an honorable fashion? How do I behave so that years later I will look at my actions and say I acted with honor and integrity? As I know all too well, it's very hard to act with honor and integrity when things get extremely messy. But if you can have those two questions in the forefront of your mind, it may help you control your emotional responses to a highly volatile situation.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 7:45:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alecta quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Where we disagree is that I do NOT agree that the submissive/slave has NO responsibility whatsoever to raise this issue. Why would this ever be the case? Is a submissive/slave not responsible for negotiating the terms of what they are agreeing to? (I snipped for simplicity and continuity, not context) I think I misunderstood the post I replied to, in which I thought you maintained that a submissive is solely responsible for negotiating their own conditions before entering service and that the Dom/mes should be wary of those to who do not think to do so; whereas my point is that it is the Dom/mes responsibility to raise the subject and negotiation, not the slave's. I wasn't referring to "trust me" situations, I was referring to the reality of how people are when they enter BDSM relationships-- sometimes the relationship aspect is so prominent that they forget, or deliberately neglect. Who wants to start a relationship already imagining its end? I know we disagree on how much responsibility a sub/slave has in negotiating their situation. I feel that a slave/sub is responsible for agreeing to whatever stipulations set down and have the right to negotiate over the terms if they choose, but it is the Dom/me's responsibility to think of the things that need to be addressed and see that they are properly thought over and acted upon by both parties. The sub/slave holds the Dom/me as the one in charge, in control, the one who "knows better", therefore, that is how we must act. This is how I personally feel and do not expect it to be agreeable to all: A person has the responsibility of looking out for themselves. A slave trades that burden to the Dom/me and serves the Dom/me in return. This makes the slave only responsible for the things the Dom/me puts down explicitly as their responsibility. Everything else is the Dom/me's responsibility because those were the implicit terms of the power exchange. Alecta, I see from your profile that you are a Dominant. And this may explain our different perspectives. As a Dominant, and clearly a responsible one, I completely understand why you feel this should be your responsibility when starting a relationship, or when a relationship evolves. But please remember that not every Dominant is as responsible as you. And therefore, it seems the only advice one can give to submissives is to take the responsibility for the issue of finances - i.e., if the Dominant doesn't raise it, as a submissive, one must. As a submissive, and knowing all too well the range of responsible behavior that exists out there, I just feel this is the only advice I can give to other submissives. I realize also that there is another way to think about this. A Dominant who doesn't raise the financial issue themselves perhaps is not the right Dominant. But regardless, submissives should at least be on notice that understanding everyone's responsibilities at the end of a relationship is something better discussed up front. My entire perspective should also be read as telling the OP that in this situation they owe whatever proper care to their submissive over some transition period. Not having raised it at the beginning should not absolve the OP of the responsibility now.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 8:34:42 AM)
Wise words indeed, and I whole heartedly agree. What to do with people that do not understand their own honor, code and maintain it with integrity though? It is an ill of our society reflected in situations such as this, and it requires the individual, in this case the OP, to just do it. Live well, Orion quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt In ending ANY relationship, a person needs to ask themselves: How do I behave in an honorable fashion? How do I behave so that years later I will look at my actions and say I acted with honor and integrity? As I know all too well, it's very hard to act with honor and integrity when things get extremely messy. But if you can have those two questions in the forefront of your mind, it may help you control your emotional responses to a highly volatile situation.

dollwish -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 8:59:17 AM)
Hi guys, for me when l find a master or mistress, l know it's not for ever and all l would like is the fare home.

Missokyst -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 9:30:56 AM)
FR I keep thinking about 20 yrs.. ya know I keep thinking that before I found the net in 95 I had no idea there was anything so defined as slavery, contracts, or being property. Sure I was doing this stuff, but it had no rules governing behavior, still doesnt as far as I know. 20 yrs ago that woman who is now "sick" probably thought she was just dating. 20 yrs ago I would wager that things were good. 20 yrs ago, she was 20 yrs younger, less damaged, less reliant on someone who has defined her. 20 yrs.. back then employers might give you a perk for longevity. While I am not one who believes that spousal support should go on for life after a marriage breaks up, I do think it is decent and humane to make sure that someone is not kicked to the curb like so much trash. Walk on. But do it as a man who has been in a relationship, not as one who is trying to rid himself of a slave. After 20 yrs she deserves better. Maybe that is all she really needs.

LaTigresse -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 10:43:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dollwish Hi guys, for me when l find a master or mistress, l know it's not for ever and all l would like is the fare home. Obviously you've not been 'owned' or experienced the level of internal inslavement that can occur.

LadyPact -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 11:01:40 AM)
CP, I share your hopes in the OP reading your comments here, as well as some others, and it inspires him to step in up in the decent human being department. With the sparse details given in the thread here, I'm sure there is more than meets the eye, but in My opinion, I think he could probably be doing better in that area. As I've said on multiple occasions, you can tell a lot about a person's character by the way they handle the end of a relationship. I'm not much for abandoning someone when there is a health issue involved. Emotional and/or mental health has just as much validity as physical, so to Me, it's like saying a person has cancer and the other person in the situation doesn't want to support them through that. I'm not saying that is a reason to keep a dynamic going if it has already reached it's natural end. I guess it's a repeat of the 'step it up in the decent human being department' phrase. The time frame you mentioned in your post (6-12 months) is pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. You also phrased it better than I did when you say the reversal of internal enslavement. Orion also has hit on this as well. If the M-type has successfully incorporated IE as part of M/s by design, or even just because the personality type transitions to IE as a natural evolution, that is an area of responsibility for the M. You (general you) reaped the benefits of achieving that during the dynamic, so it's only right to be emotionally supportive during the reversal. This may take less time for a dynamic that lasted five years as opposed to ten, and ten years as opposed to twenty, but I actually see this as part of the deal. It was even mentioned somewhere in these pages point blank. Wanting that M status during the dynamic means you pull up your big boy/girl pants and see your obligations out should there be an end.

kalikshama -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 11:45:49 AM)
I could google this of course, but does anyone have any good links on internal enslavement? I see it was mentioned quite a bit in this thread: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4027616/mpage_1/tm.htm but was looking for more of a page dedicated to the topic.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:07:12 PM)
http://www.enslavement.org.uk/ A few sites have a smattering of information, but this one has some good articles, FAQ, about, etc. Just hit me up on the other side if you have any questions concerning actual application of IE pro's and con's.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:08:42 PM)
Keep speaking my thoughts, as we have discovered you do it often. Very few have experienced the level of IE that can happen, and instead confuse it with stockholm or BWS. quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: dollwish Hi guys, for me when l find a master or mistress, l know it's not for ever and all l would like is the fare home. Obviously you've not been 'owned' or experienced the level of internal inslavement that can occur.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:10:56 PM)
LP, many forget the "duty of care" that is part of the responsibilty of owning property the moment they feel they have no more use for it. Hell, many do not even understand a duty of care when owning living property, a pet or anything else they make decisions for and condition.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:15:02 PM)
Very nice website, ty Orion. Yes, it does have some Gor overtones (I say this from what little I know of Gor), but it looks like great reading for anyone interested in the subject.

Alecta -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:16:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess My entire perspective should also be read as telling the OP that in this situation they owe whatever proper care to their submissive over some transition period. Not having raised it at the beginning should not absolve the OP of the responsibility now. That I very much agree with, with the addition that both parties should have an understanding of their share of responsibilities throughout every part of the relationship, period. I see the issue of responsibility largely as a burden of fault, rather than a "natural action". Being aware of who and what you're getting into holds true for both sides. I do not expect the world to agree with me (only my slaves ;) ), and since I also believe in letting people be happy in the beds they've made for themselves, my thoughts are ultimately moot to those Dom/mes who disagree... at least until I take over as Supreme Tyrant of the Earth. It's funny, I didn't realise you were on the other side of the fence :)

LafayetteLady -> RE: releasing a slave (5/3/2012 12:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst FR I keep thinking about 20 yrs.. ya know I keep thinking that before I found the net in 95 I had no idea there was anything so defined as slavery, contracts, or being property. Sure I was doing this stuff, but it had no rules governing behavior, still doesnt as far as I know. 20 yrs ago that woman who is now "sick" probably thought she was just dating. 20 yrs ago I would wager that things were good. 20 yrs ago, she was 20 yrs younger, less damaged, less reliant on someone who has defined her. 20 yrs.. back then employers might give you a perk for longevity. While I am not one who believes that spousal support should go on for life after a marriage breaks up, I do think it is decent and humane to make sure that someone is not kicked to the curb like so much trash. Walk on. But do it as a man who has been in a relationship, not as one who is trying to rid himself of a slave. After 20 yrs she deserves better. Maybe that is all she really needs. Interesting way of looking at things. Twenty years ago, employers valued loyalty to a company. Nowadays, it means nothing and they will happily kick you to the curb after twenty years of service to hire a college grad with no experience at half your salary for no other reason than they are saving money. In cases of divorce, alimony today is not often awarded on a "lifetime" basis, except for some specific circumstances. Twenty years ago, a woman in her late twenties/early thirties entered into a relationship with a man and stopped working. Twenty years later, she is a woman in her fifties with no job experience in the last twenty years (from a technology standpoint, a dinosaur), and as someone in her fifties, not really employable. Yes, people that age do manage to get new jobs in their careers, but the reality is that it is rare. Age discrimination in the workplace is rampant. So here is a woman who really should receive a lifetime of support.

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