The Desert One Debacle (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 8:10:05 PM)

From The Atlantic, here is an excellent read on the failed attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran, 30 years ago.

The Desert One Debacle
quote:


Washington, D.C., April 11, 1980, Noon

The meeting began with Jimmy Carter’s announcement: “Gentlemen, I want you to know that I am seriously considering an attempt to rescue the hostages.”

Hamilton Jordan, the White House chief of staff, knew immediately that the president had made a decision. Planning and practice for a rescue mission had been going on in secret for five months, but it had always been regarded as the last resort, and ever since the November 4 embassy takeover, the White House had made every effort to avoid it. As the president launched into a list of detailed questions about how it was to be done, his aides knew he had mentally crossed a line.




Owner59 -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 8:26:45 PM)

Had he pulled it off......he`d have won a 2nd term, established the solar bank,developed alt. energies and continued the mandate that we become energy independent.



Instead we had ronnie, who chose rather to give 20% of our money to those who were behind/funded the 9/11 attacks.[8|]




erieangel -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 8:57:11 PM)

Ironic that the hostages were released right after Ronnie was inaugurated, ain't it?





TheHeretic -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 9:00:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Ironic that the hostages were released right after Ronnie was inaugurated, ain't it?





Did you read the article, before you jumped to the most partisan snark you could come up with? I know better than to waste the keystrokes asking that of the other poster.




erieangel -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 9:38:50 PM)

8 service members were lost that day in a failed attempt to rescue a group of hostages and you and right wingers have been blaming Carter ever since. You consider it a debacle.

Yet how many have lost their lives in Iraq? A war Bush started based on a pack of lies? And to criticize Bush is to be un-American, un-patriotic. Bush not only did not pay for his war of choice, he never even put it on the budget--which accounts for part of the deficit we now have because Obama did put the cost of the Iraq war on the budget.





TheHeretic -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 9:57:18 PM)

Those who do take the time to read the piece (single page version of a seven pager) will find a well told story of the mission, and what went wrong, that doesn't waste itself on partisan shots. From powdery sand five inches deep on the landing strip, and pilots unaware of dangerous and damaging weather conditions, in the beginning, to how it all went so badly at the end

It is the story of a military mission at the very edge of what was possible. It surely was a grand vision.




SoftBonds -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 11:32:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Those who do take the time to read the piece (single page version of a seven pager) will find a well told story of the mission, and what went wrong, that doesn't waste itself on partisan shots. From powdery sand five inches deep on the landing strip, and pilots unaware of dangerous and damaging weather conditions, in the beginning, to how it all went so badly at the end

It is the story of a military mission at the very edge of what was possible. It surely was a grand vision.

Another point...
Part of the planning was 2 helicopters in case one had engine problems. Odds of 2 helo's having problems are (odds of one helo getting engine problems) squared, miniscule chances. But when the same factor increased the risk for both helo's, it wiped out the risk management measure of having a backup helo. Still talked about in military risk management classes today.
Kinda like how the US Marine Corps amphibious assault manual is "look at what the British did in Crimea, and don't do that."




SoftBonds -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/25/2012 11:34:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Ironic that the hostages were released right after Ronnie was inaugurated, ain't it?





Did you read the article, before you jumped to the most partisan snark you could come up with? I know better than to waste the keystrokes asking that of the other poster.


Yeah, we are not supposed to talk about how Saint Reagan sold guns to terrorists to give money to the Iranian government that took the hostages to get them released...
But the Contras were our terrorists, so it was OK. Just like the Afghanistani freedom fighters...




Iamsemisweet -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 8:13:10 AM)

Thanks, this was a great article.




joether -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 3:14:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
From The Atlantic, here is an excellent read on the failed attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran, 30 years ago.

The Desert One Debacle
quote:


Washington, D.C., April 11, 1980, Noon

The meeting began with Jimmy Carter’s announcement: “Gentlemen, I want you to know that I am seriously considering an attempt to rescue the hostages.”

Hamilton Jordan, the White House chief of staff, knew immediately that the president had made a decision. Planning and practice for a rescue mission had been going on in secret for five months, but it had always been regarded as the last resort, and ever since the November 4 embassy takeover, the White House had made every effort to avoid it. As the president launched into a list of detailed questions about how it was to be done, his aides knew he had mentally crossed a line.



I seem to recall another president of the Democratic party that took down the guy that masterminded the 9/11 attacks, that a Republican president failed to do. There was quite a huge amount of fallout that could have taken place if even somethings went wrong. The guys that did the mission trained nearly daily, and they tried to cover all the possible situations that could arise from it. Also, the mission was to invade Pakistan, a country that was 'friends' of the USA at the time.

The mission was a success! We didnt lose a single man (including the dog!). BUT.....

....Conservatives have since that day been bashing the president for it, 24/7 across a wide range of media outlets. How about those elected Republicans in office? They were happy to give 'congrats' to the military guys (and pander to military types and families) while giving a cold shoulder to the guy that gave the 'ok' to proceed with it! The question is...what the hell does the President have to do, for conservatives to say "Good Job Mr. President!" without becoming a mindless conservative moron?




Mupainurpleasure -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 4:28:03 PM)

The mission would of failed no matter who was President. Reagan is to easy to bash . How obtuse does his ending a national energy stratagy to wean us of mideast oil look after 3 wars and 5 dollar gas?




DarkSteven -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 4:48:55 PM)

Wow. The Iranians won without even being aware they were under attack. Too much weaponry, too poor preparation, too much confusion. Had they actually encountered the hostages and their captors, there's no doubt in my mind that it would have ended far worse, with rescuers and hostages killed, likely by friendly fire.

In my opinion, the difference between that mission and the one that took out OBL was better preparedness and training, and a firm understanding of the advantage of working quickly.

Poor Carter. He's a good man, but that failed mission killed his career.




Karmastic -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 6:26:30 PM)

thanks OP, interesting.

others: all this partisan talk is absurd, and totally irrelevant. they waited for a lame duck pres to finish his term, and released to a pres they could get some mileage out of. nothing to do with which party was leaving office.

good point about them messing up the redundancy. the choppers should have been staggered, and taken slightly different routes.




BamaD -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 6:51:17 PM)

The choppers failed because the air filters clogged up. This had happened every time they practiced. I don't believe anyone was supposed to die but they were sent out there to fail so Carter could claimto have proven that no military option would work.




Karmastic -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 7:02:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The choppers failed because the air filters clogged up. This had happened every time they practiced. I don't believe anyone was supposed to die but they were sent out there to fail so Carter could claimto have proven that no military option would work.


assuming there's any grains of truth to that (and you simply assert it with no evidence or theory) - at best it's oversimplifying things. advisers disagreeing on whether the plan is operational or not, or whether it's a go or not isn't the same thing as saying Carter sent a couple dozen good men to out just to fail, and mostly likely, die in the process. That premise seems absurd - who tries something they know will fail and help them lose an election?

And you stated a truism, that the choppers failed because their filters got clogged. This doesn't add to or relate to my point - that properly staging the choppers would have exponentially reduced the risk of both of them failing from the very same thing (sand) and the very same sand storm.




Anaxagoras -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 8:03:45 PM)

I read through some of the article and skimmed a bit quicker through the rest as its pretty long but well put together. Have to agree with Karmastic re. partisan talk. TBH I didn't see much bias - I thought it presented Carter quite sympathetically!



quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
But the Contras were our terrorists, so it was OK. Just like the Afghanistani freedom fighters...

No offense intended Softbonds but I still don't get how some can call the Mujahadeen "terrorists" during the time of a pretty vicious Soviet invasion, even if some ended up being enemies subsequently.




Mupainurpleasure -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 8:33:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

thanks OP, interesting.

others: all this partisan talk is absurd, and totally irrelevant. they waited for a lame duck pres to finish his term, and released to a pres they could get some mileage out of. nothing to do with which party was leaving office.

good point about them messing up the redundancy. the choppers should have been staggered, and taken slightly different routes.
sand we had no idea. I made the things for 30 yrs we didnt realize how much more corrosive the enviroment really was till desert storm. That mission was doomed




Mupainurpleasure -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/26/2012 8:45:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The choppers failed because the air filters clogged up. This had happened every time they practiced. I don't believe anyone was supposed to die but they were sent out there to fail so Carter could claimto have proven that no military option would work.


nah we really didnt understand the extreme enviorment of sand. I have first hand experiences with the fixes to correct the miscalculation in desert storm. your point is contradicted by facts. It is a fiction. You mknow reagan called them that day and warned them...just as supported as your statemnent and just as true
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/hollowayrpt.htm

I'd like to point out that not all of these 23 issues were criticisms per se. In some cases the Group concluded that with respect to the questions raised on an issue, there was no better way of handling the problem, or what was done had little or no influence on the outcome. However, since our purpose was to help identify lessons learned for future application, we included in our report all that we considered significant. Quite frankly, we were apprehensive that the critical tone which this resulted in could be misinterpreted as an indictment of the able and brave men who planned and executed this operation. As is stated in the Forwarding Section of the unclassified report, we encountered not a shred of evidence of culpable neglect or incompetence.

It was recognized at the outset that it might be difficult to reach a group consensus, either in the analysis or in the findings. So we agreed that minority positions would be included if necessary in out final report. In retrospect, I find it interesting that what we finally achieved represented the unanimous views of the members of the Group. There were no dissenting footnotes in what we conveyed to the Joint Chiefs!

Turning to our findings, let me quickly run over the more significant items. These are highlighted in the Executive Summary, and developed more fully in the Conclusions section.

The concept of a small clandestine operation was valid and consistent with national policy objectives. It offered the best chance of getting the hostages out alive and the least danger of a war with Iran.

2


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The operation was feasible. It probably represented the plan with the best chance of success under the circumstances, and the decision to execute was justified.

The rescue mission was a high-risk operation. People and equipment were called on to perform at the upper limits of human capacity and equipment capability.

The first realistic capability to successfully accomplish the rescue of hostages was reached at the end of March.

OPSEC [Operational Security] was an overriding requirement for a successful operation. Success was totally dependent upon maintaining secrecy.

Command and control was excellent at the upper echelons, but became more tenuous and fragile at the intermediate levels. Command relationships below the Commander, JTF [Joint Task Force], were not clearly emphasized in some cases and were susceptible to misunderstandings under pressure.

External resources adequately supported the JTF and were not a limiting factor.

Planning was adequate except for a number of backup helicopters and provisions for weather contingencies. A larger helicopter force and better provisions for weather penetration would have increased the probability of mission success.

Preparation for the mission was adequate except for the lack of a comprehensive, full-scale training exercise. Operational readiness of the force would have benefited from a full-dress rehearsal. Command and control weaknesses probably would have surfaced and been ironed out.

Two factors combined to directly cause the mission abort: unexpected helicopter failure rate and low-visibility flight conditions en route to Desert One.

These conclusions lead the Group to recommend that:

-a Counterterrorist Joint Task Force (CTJTF) be established as a field agency of the Joint Chiefs of Staff with permanently assigned staff personnel and certain assigned forces.

3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- the Joint Chiefs of Staff give careful consideration to the establishment of a Special Operations Advisory Panel, comprised of a group of carefully selected high-ranking officers (active and/or retired) who have career backgrounds in special operations or who have served at the CINC or JCS levels and who have maintained a current interest in special operations or defense policy matters.

Before closing, let me make a couple of very important points.

First, the group unanimously concluded that no one action or lack of action caused the operation to fail -- and conversely, no one of our identified alternatives or all the alternatives could have guaranteed success.

Second, as I mentioned earlier, we unanimously agreed that the people who commanded, planned, and executed the operation were the most competent and best qualified for the task of all available. There were none better.

In closing, I would ask that as you read this report, keep in mind its purposes and its context:

-it's a professional critique of the Iranian hostage rescue operation, addressed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

- by its very nature, any critique of this sort has to appear highly critical, since it can't allow any potential area of possible future improvement to go unquestioned.

- it's produced with the benefit of hindsight.




Karmastic -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/27/2012 10:26:41 AM)

thanks for injecting reality and facts into this




subspaceseven -> RE: The Desert One Debacle (4/27/2012 10:33:35 AM)

I was just going to point that out, I guess the whole Iran -Contra stuff and the 138 indicted people on Reagen staff are not included in the new updated history books.




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