Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

France


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> France Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
France - 5/7/2012 8:44:57 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
France has elected a new president. Since he's a socialist, I doubt he'll make anything worse. Things may get even better if that's possible.

United States
:

outrageous college tuition, sick people dying slow painful deaths because of lack of health care (let them die, I don't want to pay for anyone else's health care I want my freedom it's all about me me me me), executions that can't be reversed if they find out the person was innocent, only partial salary if injured, working long hours, tax dollars spent on policing the world

France:

no college tuition, everyone gets health care, no death penalty, full pay while off work if injured, work less hours, stay out of wars that don't concern them and spend their tax dollars on their own people

I'm not sure why so many Americans hate the French. Perhaps because they're better than us?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: France - 5/7/2012 8:57:54 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
I'm interested to see how the new president affects France's economy as some of our economist have been saying for some time we need to spend more and tax the wealthy more, which is what Mr. Hollande has promised to do.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/07/world/europe/hollande-and-sarkozy-in-crucial-runoff-in-france.html

The balance between reducing the debt and addressing popular anger is proving complicated for Europeans, and Mr. Hollande has said that he intends to give “a new direction to Europe,” demanding that a European Union treaty limiting debt be expanded to include measures to produce economic growth. Domestically, he has promised to raise taxes on big corporations and raise the tax rate to 75 percent for those earning more than one million euros a year.

Calling his victory “a fresh start,” Mr. Hollande pronounced: “Austerity need not be Europe’s fate.”

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: France - 5/7/2012 9:25:06 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
If France goes the way of Greece, will you guys finally admit progressive policies don't work? I'll admit they work, if France figures it out in time.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: France - 5/7/2012 9:38:00 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
Rob, you're thinking of this an an economic problem. In Greece, it's an economic AND political problem.

The problem is simple - the spending wasn't sustainable. So Greece borrowed money to cover the shortfall. The lenders demanded austerity measures as a cost of making the loan. The result was rioting.

You can view the austerity as the indolent middle class getting bitch slapped back to reality, or that the wealthy got off scot free at the expense of the middle class. Either way, there's no sense of shared sacrifice.

I never understood the EU anyway. After Germany had to absorb the crappy economy of East Germany after reunification, I'm stunned they fell for the same thing twice.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: France - 5/7/2012 9:55:48 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I never understood the EU anyway.


Adam Gopnik offered an interesting perspective in the New Yorker recently.

His conclusion:

In thinking about Europe and its union, the number that one needs to keep in mind is not the rate of the euro exchange or the measure of the Greek deficit but a simpler one, of sixty million.

That is the approximate (and probably understated) number of Europeans killed in the thirty years between 1914 and 1945, victims of wars of competing nationalisms on a tragically divided continent. The truth needs re-stating: social democracy in Europe, embodied by its union, has been one of the greatest successes in history. Like all successes, it can seem exasperatingly commonplace. There is something uninspiring about the compromises and the dailiness of a happy marriage, and something compelling about one that is coming apart: it looks more like the due fate of all things. Yet the truth ought to remain central. A continent torn by the two most horrible wars in history achieved a remarkable half century of peace and prosperity, based on a marriage of liberalism properly so called (individual freedoms, including the entrepreneurial kind) and socialism rightly so ordered (as an equitable care for the common good). Any pleasure taken in the failure of Europe to expunge all its demons threatens to become one more way of not having to examine our own. A mild-mannered, European-minded citizen king is, at least, better than a passionately convinced exceptionalist. France, and Europe, learned that lesson the hard way.




_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: France - 5/7/2012 10:02:56 AM   
Falkenstein


Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
As much as I dislike it, the Greek are in Europe and we, the European, have to help them. Until know, we have only helped EU banks.

Now, this does not mean writing blank checks, and as long as there are more Porsche Cayenne in Greece that tax payer with an income equivalent to the price of a Porsche, the Greek have to improve their fiscal discipline and we should not do more that avoiding their starvation.


As for France, I do not worry. They will land again on their feet.

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: France - 5/7/2012 10:16:11 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline

As Margaret Thatcher said, "socialism works until you run out of other peoples money." If France and the other Europeon countries continue to give everybody, everything, they will have to go to Germany to bail them out. I think the Germans are smart enough to realize the Europeon countries won't be able to pay back loans as long as they continue their give everybody, everything mentality.

The rich are rich because the're not stupid. If told they must pay exorbitant taxes to pay for the government's generousity, the rich will simply move to more tax friendly countries. (and take their money with them) Look what happened when New York raised taxes on the rich. Some rich moved out of state and revenues went DOWN. The rich have resources and resources allow you to go wherever you want.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: France - 5/7/2012 10:27:07 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
I'm not sure why so many Americans hate the French. Perhaps because they're better than us?

I am not American (I am Canadian), I dont have many feelings about France other than their system is you are guilty until your prove yourself innocent, so in that way, the exact opposite of the US & Canada.. so in that respect, I find France a little scary.. I have heard there are reasonable real estate prices in France (compared to the UK, etc), not sure if thats still true or not..

as far as the rich go,.. it doesnt matter the country, if you piss off the rich, their accountants/tax lawyers will find loopholes or the rich will just take their marbles and move to a friendlier country.. Its the middle class and the poor that are captives..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: France - 5/7/2012 11:03:39 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

After Germany had to absorb the crappy economy of East Germany after reunification


If your sister had been kidnapped for the crimes of your father would you not welcome her into your home openly and freely upon her release? Would you not seek to nurture her back to the level of economic and social condition you enjoy?

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: France - 5/7/2012 11:07:46 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
France's new president faces a budget crisis for the country. Read one story here.

Look, I am a democrat and a moderate liberal. I will admit that I agree with the idea of universal health care, however, nobody has come up with a good way to fund such a program. Free college tuition is a good idea on paper, but someone explain to me how you are going to pay for it.

IF, and that is a big word, the United States closed loopholes in the corporate tax laws, it would do a great deal to get rid of the deficit in our own country, but it would not fund universal health care OR free college tuition.

France is in the same boat as far as government revenues are concerned.

You can have all the social programs you want but you have to pay for those programs.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: France - 5/7/2012 11:16:43 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


As Margaret Thatcher said, "socialism works until you run out of other peoples money."


Capitalism works until you run out of other people's money to bribe politicians.


quote:

If France and the other Europeon countries continue to give everybody, everything, they will have to go to Germany to bail them out.


If the u.s. continues to give corporations everything they will have to either raise taxes or start another war.

quote:

I think the Germans are smart enough to realize the Europeon countries won't be able to pay back loans as long as they continue their give everybody, everything mentality.


What exactly is it that the european countries give to everyone?

quote:

The rich are rich because the're not stupid.


Is it your point that only the stupid are poor?


quote:

If told they must pay exorbitant taxes to pay for the government's generousity, the rich will simply move to more tax friendly countries. (and take their money with them)


How well did that work for the rich of cuba?
How well did that work for the rich of russia?



quote:

Look what happened when New York raised taxes on the rich. Some rich moved out of state and revenues went DOWN. The rich have resources and resources allow you to go wherever you want.


Perhaps that is why the irs has created some "interesting" rules to deal with people like that.


(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: France - 5/7/2012 11:32:44 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

France's new president faces a budget crisis for the country. Read one story here.

Look, I am a democrat and a moderate liberal. I will admit that I agree with the idea of universal health care, however, nobody has come up with a good way to fund such a program. Free college tuition is a good idea on paper, but someone explain to me how you are going to pay for it.

IF, and that is a big word, the United States closed loopholes in the corporate tax laws, it would do a great deal to get rid of the deficit in our own country, but it would not fund universal health care OR free college tuition.

France is in the same boat as far as government revenues are concerned.

You can have all the social programs you want but you have to pay for those programs.



Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on corporate welfare in the u.s.?
Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on the constant war that the u.s. is involved in?
Would you hazard a guess as to the value of the comodoties the govt gives to private capitalist to sell? We are speaking here of oil,gas,coal,timber,gold silver etc. The natural resources of the u.s. are the exclusive property of the citizens of the u.s. and are currently leased for a pittance to private individuals for private profit at the public expense.
Is it possible that if the govt were to cater to the needs of all of it's citizens instead of just the rich that there would be sufficient funds to cover all social programs with the taxes now in place?

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: France - 5/7/2012 12:06:40 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion
As Margaret Thatcher said, "socialism works until you run out of other peoples money." If France and the other Europeon countries continue to give everybody, everything, they will have to go to Germany to bail them out. I think the Germans are smart enough to realize the Europeon countries won't be able to pay back loans as long as they continue their give everybody, everything mentality.


*Wince* at the Mad Maggie quote. ;-)

The first problem for the richies is that they don't stay rich if people are too poor to buy their goods. This finally obtruded onto the consciousnesses of even the greediest and most selfish of those who lived during the Great Depression. While it'd be useful to learn the lesson of what happens when a government spends too much, it'd also be useful to remember (or relearn) the lesson of that episode in the early twentieth century.


_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: France - 5/7/2012 12:14:32 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

France's new president faces a budget crisis for the country. Read one story here.

Look, I am a democrat and a moderate liberal. I will admit that I agree with the idea of universal health care, however, nobody has come up with a good way to fund such a program. Free college tuition is a good idea on paper, but someone explain to me how you are going to pay for it.

IF, and that is a big word, the United States closed loopholes in the corporate tax laws, it would do a great deal to get rid of the deficit in our own country, but it would not fund universal health care OR free college tuition.

France is in the same boat as far as government revenues are concerned.

You can have all the social programs you want but you have to pay for those programs.



Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on corporate welfare in the u.s.?
Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on the constant war that the u.s. is involved in?
Would you hazard a guess as to the value of the comodoties the govt gives to private capitalist to sell? We are speaking here of oil,gas,coal,timber,gold silver etc. The natural resources of the u.s. are the exclusive property of the citizens of the u.s. and are currently leased for a pittance to private individuals for private profit at the public expense.
Is it possible that if the govt were to cater to the needs of all of it's citizens instead of just the rich that there would be sufficient funds to cover all social programs with the taxes now in place?





The current costs of BOTH wars is $1,329,772,000,000 plus. For the record I think we should get all of our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Corporate Welfare costs the Federal government billions with no real amount listed.

Now, as for natural resources, being a land owner, I can tell you that the minerals under my land are MINE, according to the mineral rights. So the resources belong not to the American People but to the people who own the mineral rights to those resources. Sorry buy you are misinformed, most resources in this country are privately owned.

Resources on public land are owned by the public but are mined or otherwise processed by independent companies per agreement with the federal government, and the government has made great strides in controlling those resources.

One more point on this, per agreements in the 70's, resources found on Indian Reservations are under the control of the tribal governments and owned by the tribe collectively.

Private ownership of natural resources are part of capitalism.

Most people who deal in large tracts of land negotiate the ownership of mineral rights to that land. Walmart will not purchase any land unless they have full mineral rights to that land. Most corporations operate in the same fashion.

Unfortunately, the government is influenced by who has the money, the Republicans are great examples. They would rather worry about corporate or the interests of the wealthy rather than the interests of everyone.

HOWEVER, IF the tax laws for corporations were redone so that companies like GE paid taxes instead of paying zero taxes, Federal revenues would be increased, but I dont think that would provide enough money to cover ALL the social programs that some extreme liberals want.


As I said, social programs have to be paid for. To do that you have to raise revenues, and the Republicans are fighting the very things needed to raise revenues, i.e taxes.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: France - 5/7/2012 12:17:02 PM   
kitkat105


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/29/2011
From: Eating dutch crunch in the Silicon Valley
Status: offline
Well, Australia are socialist wannabe's and the news of this new guy wiped $27 billion of the Australia stock exchange.

*shrug*

_____________________________

"WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS!"

Odeen's spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down

Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags

Secretary - ProSubs"R"Us

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: France - 5/7/2012 12:27:08 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

Well, Australia are socialist wannabe's and the news of this new guy wiped $27 billion of the Australia stock exchange.

*shrug*



Would you have any validation for this puerile nonsense?

(in reply to kitkat105)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: France - 5/7/2012 12:28:25 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Capitalism works until you run out of other people's money to bribe politicians.


Btw, that isn't Capitalism. That's Corporatism, and even most Conservatives are against that.

quote:

quote:

If France and the other Europeon countries continue to give everybody, everything, they will have to go to Germany to bail them out.


If the u.s. continues to give corporations everything they will have to either raise taxes or start another war.


And, interestingly enough, if we end Corporatism, most conservatives will even be happier. We want Capitalism, not Corporatism.

quote:

quote:

If told they must pay exorbitant taxes to pay for the government's generousity, the rich will simply move to more tax friendly countries. (and take their money with them)

How well did that work for the rich of cuba?
How well did that work for the rich of russia?



So, you're saying that we need to tax the shit out of the rich, and prevent them from leaving. That sounds a bit like slavery there. Do the rich have to work? Or, do they work because they want more? I seriously doubt "the rich" couldn't just stop working, pull their investments (yes, take that hit) and become almost tax exempt.

Increase taxes on Corporations to the point where it stops being rewarding, you'll have businesses ending because those who own them have no reason to keep them going anymore.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: France - 5/7/2012 1:06:09 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

France's new president faces a budget crisis for the country. Read one story here.

Look, I am a democrat and a moderate liberal. I will admit that I agree with the idea of universal health care, however, nobody has come up with a good way to fund such a program. Free college tuition is a good idea on paper, but someone explain to me how you are going to pay for it.

IF, and that is a big word, the United States closed loopholes in the corporate tax laws, it would do a great deal to get rid of the deficit in our own country, but it would not fund universal health care OR free college tuition.

France is in the same boat as far as government revenues are concerned.

You can have all the social programs you want but you have to pay for those programs.



Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on corporate welfare in the u.s.?
Would you hazard a guess as to the amount of money that is spent on the constant war that the u.s. is involved in?
Would you hazard a guess as to the value of the comodoties the govt gives to private capitalist to sell? We are speaking here of oil,gas,coal,timber,gold silver etc. The natural resources of the u.s. are the exclusive property of the citizens of the u.s. and are currently leased for a pittance to private individuals for private profit at the public expense.
Is it possible that if the govt were to cater to the needs of all of it's citizens instead of just the rich that there would be sufficient funds to cover all social programs with the taxes now in place?





quote:

The current costs of BOTH wars is $1,329,772,000,000 plus. For the record I think we should get all of our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan.


According to th census bureau there are about 181k college students in the u.s.1,329,772,000,000/181,000=$7,346,806.63 per student.

quote:

Corporate Welfare costs the Federal government billions with no real amount listed.

Now, as for natural resources, being a land owner, I can tell you that the minerals under my land are MINE, according to the mineral rights. So the resources belong not to the American People but to the people who own the mineral rights to those resources. Sorry buy you are misinformed, most resources in this country are privately owned.


Not true except in the most rare of circumstances. If you have a mortgage you do not have mineral rights to the land you occupy the lien holder does. Most property in this country is owned by lien holders and not the resident. Thus the mineral rights to those properties are held by corporate interest and not private individuals. Also consider how you and most everyone else in the u.s. acquied your property. If you trace it back your title will eventually come from the federal govt. which may or may not attach the mineral rights to the deed. Most corporatins do not own the land or the minerals rights under thier store. To my knowledge Sears is the only corp. to demand and get ownership of the land their stores sit on in shopping malls.

quote:

Resources on public land are owned by the public but are mined or otherwise processed by independent companies per agreement with the federal government, and the government has made great strides in controlling those resources.


When the govt gets .50 per acre for a mining lease that is developing a million ouncs of gold a year how is that controling anything?

quote:

One more point on this, per agreements in the 70's, resources found on Indian Reservations are under the control of the tribal governments and owned by the tribe collectively.


It is interesting to note that the defense department still carries reservations on the books as "prisoner of war camps".


quote:

Private ownership of natural resources are part of capitalism.


Nowhere in the constitution do I find any reference to the u.s. being constituted as a capitalist nation

quote:

Most people who deal in large tracts of land negotiate the ownership of mineral rights to that land. Walmart will not purchase any land unless they have full mineral rights to that land. Most corporations operate in the same fashion.



Most people do not deal in large tracts of land,captalist corporations do. So it would appear that your point is that capitalist corporations are land owners and have the mineral rights but normal citizens do not.

quote:

Unfortunately, the government is influenced by who has the money, the Republicans are great examples. They would rather worry about corporate or the interests of the wealthy rather than the interests of everyone.



I remain unconvinced of any signifigant difference between the demopubs and the republicrats.

quote:

HOWEVER, IF the tax laws for corporations were redone so that companies like GE paid taxes instead of paying zero taxes, Federal revenues would be increased, but I dont think that would provide enough money to cover ALL the social programs that some extreme liberals want.
As I said, social programs have to be paid for. To do that you have to raise revenues, and the Republicans are fighting the very things needed to raise revenues, i.e taxes.


I suppose it is dificult to manage ones expenses at university on a mere 7 million a year.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: France - 5/7/2012 1:07:31 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
double post

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/7/2012 1:10:36 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: France - 5/7/2012 1:23:06 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Capitalism works until you run out of other people's money to bribe politicians.


quote:

Btw, that isn't Capitalism. That's Corporatism, and even most Conservatives are against that.


How exactly do they differ? How does capitalism exist without the protection of the corporation?

quote:

quote:

If France and the other Europeon countries continue to give everybody, everything, they will have to go to Germany to bail them out.


If the u.s. continues to give corporations everything they will have to either raise taxes or start another war.


quote:

And, interestingly enough, if we end Corporatism, most conservatives will even be happier. We want Capitalism, not Corporatism.



How exactly does that work?

quote:

quote:

If told they must pay exorbitant taxes to pay for the government's generousity, the rich will simply move to more tax friendly countries. (and take their money with them)

How well did that work for the rich of cuba?
How well did that work for the rich of russia?



quote:

So, you're saying that we need to tax the shit out of the rich, and prevent them from leaving. That sounds a bit like slavery there.


Seems like exactly the position of the not rich are in. You seem to want freedom for the rich but slavery for the not rich...why?

quote:

Do the rich have to work?


Perhaps you could tell us just what sort of "work warren buffet,bill gates or rupert murdoch do?
No I do not consider stabing people in the back or raiding pension funds to be work.





quote:

Or, do they work because they want more? I seriously doubt "the rich" couldn't just stop working, pull their investments (yes, take that hit) and become almost tax exempt.


Castro told the rich as they were leaving cuba...that which you got from cuba you will repay to cuba before you leave.

quote:

Increase taxes on Corporations to the point where it stops being rewarding, you'll have businesses ending because those who own them have no reason to keep them going anymore.


It seems to be your position that if your corporation is making $100 million in profit after taxes you will close shop if your profits are only $50 million. What puerile nonsense




(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> France Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094