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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 4:09:31 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submittous
The whole argument maybe moot anyway. There are more Hispanics going south than north over the border these days. As the US loses it's low cost labor force with no benefits we'll see if it turns out to be a plus or minus for the economy... Those of us living here in Mexico would prefer that they come home unarmed.

From your stand point, from what you see on that side of the border.. what are the reasons you have been told about why are they going back south?

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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 4:10:55 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The whole argument maybe moot anyway. There are more Hispanics going south than north over the border these days


It's true here in Gloucester. We were loaded with Bazillions of Brazilians all working the shellfish and bait trade. And when things started getting better a huge percentage of them started headed home. Sort of a shame in my book since my kids had made friends with many of their kids, etc.


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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 5:17:00 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

No, what i wondered was, did he own the guns before he found out he was illegal? It was just more my curiousity as it seems 18 year olds can buy firearms (depending on the state requirements, etc).. My thing about them being passive was more that they generally dont do anything to call attention to themselves.. So yes, I would agree that illegals are usually very law abiding.. which is why this case surprised me.. for an illegal to have firearms, more than one, is very unusual (to take that kind of risk).. which is also why i was wondering about the search warrants.. what caused them to be issued..


Wyoming has more legal guns per capita than any other state.
The individual in question had a rifle a pistol and a shotgun. Owning one each of the three basic types of guns does not seem excessive especially in a state where an individual owning several dozen of any particular type is not uncommon.

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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 5:26:31 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
The court found in DC v Heller that the right to bear arms is unconnected with the militia.


I don't think that's entirely accurate representation of the courts position:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 5:33:23 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

No, what i wondered was, did he own the guns before he found out he was illegal? It was just more my curiousity as it seems 18 year olds can buy firearms (depending on the state requirements, etc).. My thing about them being passive was more that they generally dont do anything to call attention to themselves.. So yes, I would agree that illegals are usually very law abiding.. which is why this case surprised me.. for an illegal to have firearms, more than one, is very unusual (to take that kind of risk).. which is also why i was wondering about the search warrants.. what caused them to be issued..


Wyoming has more legal guns per capita than any other state.
The individual in question had a rifle a pistol and a shotgun. Owning one each of the three basic types of guns does not seem excessive especially in a state where an individual owning several dozen of any particular type is not uncommon.


yeah, that may be common for legal Americans but imo, a riskier proposition for illegals that want to fly under the radar.. Had i been him, i never would have owned any.. jmo, of course..

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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 5:51:57 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

No, what i wondered was, did he own the guns before he found out he was illegal? It was just more my curiousity as it seems 18 year olds can buy firearms (depending on the state requirements, etc).. My thing about them being passive was more that they generally dont do anything to call attention to themselves.. So yes, I would agree that illegals are usually very law abiding.. which is why this case surprised me.. for an illegal to have firearms, more than one, is very unusual (to take that kind of risk).. which is also why i was wondering about the search warrants.. what caused them to be issued..


Wyoming has more legal guns per capita than any other state.
The individual in question had a rifle a pistol and a shotgun. Owning one each of the three basic types of guns does not seem excessive especially in a state where an individual owning several dozen of any particular type is not uncommon.


yeah, that may be common for legal Americans but imo, a riskier proposition for illegals that want to fly under the radar.. Had i been him, i never would have owned any.. jmo, of course..


That does beg the question "why was a warrant issued"?
If he had no firearms he would still be in the slammer facing deportation...hmmm.


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 5:57:10 PM   
OsideGirl


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It's actually kind of a moot point. Even in Wyoming, which has very lenient gun laws, an NICS check is required, which is a federal background check.

So, even if it was stated that an illegal immigrant could legally own a gun, they most likely wouldn't be able to meet the legal requirements for owning a gun. Especially in places like CA that doesn't issue driver's licenses or register cars to illegal immigrants, which are two of the items used to established identity and residency.

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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 6:03:32 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
The court found in DC v Heller that the right to bear arms is unconnected with the militia.


I don't think that's entirely accurate representation of the courts position:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.



I think it is pretty damn accurte, from the actual syllabus:

Held: 
   1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

   (a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

Then your (b)

then......

      (c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment . Pp. 28–30.
       (d) The Second Amendment ’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.
       (e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
       (f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

and the peroration.

Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.

AFFIRMED.


so all there, it says that individual is okie dokie (as a militia of one), unconnected with the militia (or connected with it -- as in (b)) .

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 7:40:28 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

It's actually kind of a moot point. Even in Wyoming, which has very lenient gun laws, an NICS check is required, which is a federal background check.

So, even if it was stated that an illegal immigrant could legally own a gun, they most likely wouldn't be able to meet the legal requirements for owning a gun. Especially in places like CA that doesn't issue driver's licenses or register cars to illegal immigrants, which are two of the items used to established identity and residency.

I dont know about illegal Mexican/Hispanics, they may not be able to get drivers licenses in CA but other illegal immigrants could (depending on what country they are from).. There is a spot on the driver license application that you can check if you dont have a SSN and they also dont ask for immigration docs (Visas, green cards, etc) to prove you are in the country legally as most other states do.. same thing with registering a vehicle, once you have a drivers license thats all you need to register a vehicle.. but another way around the vehicle registration thing is to form an LLC or corporation and register the vehicles in it.. One thing i find odd in the US is that your vehicle insurance card can be used as secondary ID but you cant use your bank card/credit card as ID.. you cant use vehicle insurance doc as ID in Canada but you can use your bank card/credit card so to me its very odd.. btw, you dont even need a US drivers license to buy vehicle insurance in the US for a US registered vehicle..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 5/9/2012 7:46:14 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 8:14:31 PM   
Marini


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I think it's rather odd, that people would even NEED to have a discussion as to whether or not people in this country illegally, should even be allowed to own or purchase weapons.

What country in the world, can you own or purchase weapons when you are not a citizen? {Other than the US of course!}.

I found this website that is very user friendly, and easy to read.
Just click on the state, and learn about gun laws.


US state gun laws

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/9/2012 9:04:56 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 8:25:26 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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You need to keep reading the decision, because the Court's holding was exactly as I stated.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
The court found in DC v Heller that the right to bear arms is unconnected with the militia.


I don't think that's entirely accurate representation of the courts position:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.




_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 8:29:18 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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In reading the pleadings for the underlying case, it looks like the defendant came to the fed's attention because he was using a fake SS card and drivers license. The warrant was issued to look for guns, because he had posted pictures with his AK 47 on Facebook.

Pure genius. I am sure he will be sorely missed in Wyoming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

No, what i wondered was, did he own the guns before he found out he was illegal? It was just more my curiousity as it seems 18 year olds can buy firearms (depending on the state requirements, etc).. My thing about them being passive was more that they generally dont do anything to call attention to themselves.. So yes, I would agree that illegals are usually very law abiding.. which is why this case surprised me.. for an illegal to have firearms, more than one, is very unusual (to take that kind of risk).. which is also why i was wondering about the search warrants.. what caused them to be issued..


Wyoming has more legal guns per capita than any other state.
The individual in question had a rifle a pistol and a shotgun. Owning one each of the three basic types of guns does not seem excessive especially in a state where an individual owning several dozen of any particular type is not uncommon.


yeah, that may be common for legal Americans but imo, a riskier proposition for illegals that want to fly under the radar.. Had i been him, i never would have owned any.. jmo, of course..


That does beg the question "why was a warrant issued"?
If he had no firearms he would still be in the slammer facing deportation...hmmm.





_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 8:42:52 PM   
GotSteel


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Seems like they're giving "a well regulated militia" a really really broad definition as opposed to unconnecting or negating that clause.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 8:44:25 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Pure genius. I am sure he will be sorely missed in Wyoming.


Face palm...sounds like he fit right in.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 9:14:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I think it's rather odd, that people would even NEED to have a discussion as to whether or not people in this country illegally, should even be allowed to own or purchase weapons.

What country in the world, can you own or purchase weapons when you are not a citizen? {Other than the US of course!}.

I found this website that is very user friendly, and easy to read.
Just click on the state, and learn about gun laws.


US state gun laws



America of course!


quote:

Certificates of Non Citizen Nationality


The Department of State occasionally receives requests for certificates of non-citizen national status pursuant to Section 341(b)(2) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 USC 1452(b)(2).

As the title of the certificate indicates, only a person who qualifies as a non-citizen national (i.e. a person who is a U.S. national but not a U.S. citizen) is eligible to apply for such a certificate.

Very few persons fall within this category since, as defined by the INA, all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals but only a relatively small number of persons acquire U.S. nationality without becoming U.S. citizens. Thus, Section 101(a)(22) INA states that all U.S. citizens are also nationals of the U.S. However, Section 308 INA confers U.S. nationality but not U.S. citizenship, on persons born in or having ties with "an outlying possession of the United States." The outlying possessions are defined in Section 101(A)(29) INA as American Samoa and Swains Island. No other statutes define any other territories nor any of the states as outlying possessions. Those enumerated in section 308 INA as eligible for this status, in addition to those mentioned above, are those individuals born abroad to two American non-citizen national parents, or those born abroad to one alien parent and one non-citizen national parent. Also, there is a residency requirement placed upon the parents of the child prior to birth in order to transmit U.S. nationality.




citizenship IS a contract!


One that results in your being a member of government to get to pay all the bills. Hell if you are a member of government then why dont you get the FULL SERVICES like legal etc that all the other government workers get?

Would certainly stop the criminal courts we have if there was NO MONEY in to increasingly trespass on everyones rights.

yeh and what about "inhabitants"?

Oh the twisted fucking web they weave.

nice to know we all need to be a new york lawyer just to know how to lawfully wipe our asses eh?

and another thing! LMAO

what they do not say is that the people who DO qualify are those who expatriated from the US to get out from under the 14th amendment slave contract.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/9/2012 9:19:41 PM >


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RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 9:19:08 PM   
Marini


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One thing about you Real0ne, you will never and I do mean never, miss an opportunity to make "your point", about the government.



I really do mean, never.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 9:22:44 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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it is the most convoluted hypocritical vipers den of complete bullshit you will ever run across. the shit they pull to keep people under THEIR control even shocks me. and it takes a lot to shock me. lol

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/9/2012 9:49:11 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
In reading the pleadings for the underlying case, it looks like the defendant came to the fed's attention because he was using a fake SS card and drivers license. The warrant was issued to look for guns, because he had posted pictures with his AK 47 on Facebook.

Pure genius. I am sure he will be sorely missed in Wyoming.

yeah, i figured it was something like that,.. just having guns wasnt smart.. but for them to have a search warrant and likely come in with a swat team,.. you know he did something majorly wrong/dumb...

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/10/2012 5:20:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

In reading the pleadings for the underlying case, it looks like the defendant came to the fed's attention because he was using a fake SS card and drivers license. The warrant was issued to look for guns, because he had posted pictures with his AK 47 on Facebook.

Pure genius. I am sure he will be sorely missed in Wyoming.


Being a pc biggot does seem to diminish your intellectual abilities.
Out of an estimated ten million illegal aliens in this country the feds tracked a drivers license and ss number to a facebook page to deport someone who had been in the country for more than twenty years.
Please do not piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Appeals Court holds that Second Amendment doesn't a... - 5/10/2012 6:20:23 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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The pleadings in the underlying case are public record. Find someone with a PACER account and read them. I already offered to email a PDF of the charging document, that explains the underlying facts.

But I wouldn't mind pissing on your leg anyway, idiot.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

In reading the pleadings for the underlying case, it looks like the defendant came to the fed's attention because he was using a fake SS card and drivers license. The warrant was issued to look for guns, because he had posted pictures with his AK 47 on Facebook.

Pure genius. I am sure he will be sorely missed in Wyoming.


Being a pc biggot does seem to diminish your intellectual abilities.
Out of an estimated ten million illegal aliens in this country the feds tracked a drivers license and ss number to a facebook page to deport someone who had been in the country for more than twenty years.
Please do not piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.




< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 5/10/2012 6:28:53 AM >


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 80
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