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RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:23:12 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since you are so keene on math why don't you do the same calculations for the last 40 or so presidents. Then please come and tell us of your shocking discoveries.



Yeah, it amounts to approximately the same thing. Do you have a point here, or is this just more gainsaying on your part?



My point was and is that virtually all of the u.s presidents have been "elected" by similarly small percentage of the total electorate.


That was the same point I was making. That's why I consider it deceptive to say that the "majority" supports the president, whoever it may be. Just because the current president is Obama makes no difference. It would be the same for the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan - or just about any president.

quote:


Perhaps that is because most of the people in this country know that their vote for president has about as much usefullness as second hand shit paper.


I agree. This is similar to the point I made in my response to DesideriScuri.

quote:

The electoral college appoints the president. The electoral college is appointed by the state legislatures. The state legislatures are chosen by the people from a government approved list of acceptable candidates.


Yes.


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:26:26 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

How can it be an "impossible fantasy" if 77% of the country was against Obama?


Here you are being obtuse. You are quite aware that voter turnout in this country is quite low. By your logic no president in the past 200+ years was legitimate and should have been overthrown by the "majority".
How can I break this to you gently...The guy who gets the most votes of the votes cast is often considered by most people with a three digit iq and a pulse to have recieved the "majority" of votes.



He only won because a greater percentage of the country was against McCain.


How presumptious of you to pretend to know why someone did no vote the way you wanted them to.

quote:

But that's hardly an endorsement by the "majority." That's all I was trying to get straight here. If people were really all that enthusiastic about their leadership, then they'd rush down and register right away and make their voice heard at the polls. Since the majority of people don't vote, it seems pretty clear that they're not all that fired up about any candidate.



Or perhaps they recognize that their vote does not mean shit.

quote:

What this means is that, in a rebellion, very few people would fight to protect the regime, except those who are paid to do so.


You mean like the military?

quote:

]And if the government doesn't have any money to pay them, then who would fight against an armed revolution? Certainly not the "majority." That's the only point I was making.


Would you hazard a guess how much of a chance 10,000 armed insurrectionist would have against a rifle company (120 men+2 officers)of marines

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:28:09 AM   
xssve


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quote:

...because the Federal Government does not have Constitutional authority to legislate.
Au contraire, the federal government does indeed have the power to legislate, according to constitutional principles, conservatives, for the most part, simply do not understand constitutional principles, and labor under the mistaken impression it's some kind of "majority rules" scheme.

It isn't, the majority is held to constitutional standards just like everybody else, whether it sticks in their craw or not.

Under the constitution, one is allowed to pursue their own interest without undue restraint, ostensibly under th condition that it doesn't harm anybody else - in cases where there is no universally satisfying solution, the greatest good for the greatest number is usually applied, i.e., the solution that cause the least amount of harm.

The birth control question for example, we recently debated: you don't think you should have to pay for birth control, which costs pennies a day, we don't want to pay for unwanted children who cast a great deal more than pills or condoms - economics is universal, and in economic terms, it's really a no brainer, birth control is way cheaper, but as far as I know, nobody has passed any law that requires you to use birth control, you can technically have as many kids as you want, though in those cases, it's almost always subsidized by the taxpayers.

Conservatism looks very easy on paper, but in praxis, it's a fucking mess: history is rife with example - King George was a conservative, and applying conservative values.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:32:30 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Yes, but you'd think that people who consider themselves the elite in their society would have been smart enough to be able to figure it out before their government was overthrown.


Why would one expect something that has never happened in the history of the world to suddenly happen because they asked for it to happen?

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:54:14 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'm not sure that there's no precedents as you overthrew your government once already. What did you think the American revolutionwar of independence was about?

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:54:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm sure the Republicans and Democrats would prefer to look at things that way.


I could be wrong (and it wouldn't be the first or last time), but I don't think there are any politicians here. As I know both parties will use anything they can twist into an attack on the other, I was pretty much calling out that very tactic. If 23% voted "for" Obama, that doesn't mean 77% were against him. Hell, I cast my ballot McCain, but that wasn't because I supported McCain. I cast my ballot that way because I was against Obama and cast my ballot in the way I felt best to prevent an Obama Presidency. I was for McCain more than I was for Obama, but I was definitely not supportive of the McCain platform.

quote:


If they were supporters, why wouldn't they vote?


Illness. Called in to work and had to work over time. Car broke down. Sick child. Etc. Many reasons.

quote:


Well, it seems pretty obvious that if they were such staunch supporters, they would have registered and voted. It's not that difficult, and anyone 18 and over can vote (except for convicted felons in some states, although that's probably a small percentage). So, at best, we can assume that they either just don't care enough or that they don't support any candidate.
A lot of people don't vote because they don't see any point to it. They don't see any appreciable difference between the two parties and don't feel that their lives would be significantly different no matter which party gets into power. The real pity here is that if they voted for a third party or write-in candidate, they could conceivably topple the whole system. A revolution at the ballot box.
But alas, because so many people don't vote, supporters of the winning candidate can crow about having the "majority" behind them, when nothing could be further from the truth.


Further from the truth would be the losing candidate crowing about having the majority behind them. lol

I see your point and I get it. I don't agree with the analysis. If someone doesn't cast a ballot, they can't be considered supporters or non-supporters. That's just plain fact there. Doesn't matter who is making the claims, either.


_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 7:58:03 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I could be wrong (and it wouldn't be the first or last time), but I don't think there are any politicians here. As I know both parties will use anything they can twist into an attack on the other, I was pretty much calling out that very tactic. If 23% voted "for" Obama, that doesn't mean 77% were against him.

It means a maximum of 22% were against him, in fact. This one didn't go to recounts or the supreme court, after all.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:05:27 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

I go back to my original question, somewhat re-phrased, motivated by this wing-nut individual's "editorial":

If the MAJORITY of the American voters once again decide to elect Barack Obama President this year -

Would this justify an "armed revolution" against the will of the MAJORITY of the American voters by the minority of the American voters who vote for the GOP Presidential candidate or the Libertarian Presidential candidate or some other Presidential candidate or the voters who chose not to vote at all?


I'm not sure what you mean by the word "justify." Obviously, an armed revolution would be illegal, so on that basis, I would say that it's not justified. On the other hand, armed revolts are always illegal no matter where they might occur - unless the revolutionaries happen to win. Has any revolution or rebellion ever been "justified"?

Some pacifists and moderates might believe that armed revolt is never justified and that one should work legally within the system to bring about reform and change. I suppose it depends largely on one's perspective, whether one believes the system works or whether the system is broken. It's all a matter of faith, I think.






(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:25:41 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

How can it be an "impossible fantasy" if 77% of the country was against Obama?


Here you are being obtuse.


This from the man who accused me of using "snark."

quote:


You are quite aware that voter turnout in this country is quite low. By your logic no president in the past 200+ years was legitimate and should have been overthrown by the "majority".


I never said any such thing. Re-read what I wrote.

I'm not calling for revolution here. You seem to have misinterpreted my meaning.

quote:


How can I break this to you gently...The guy who gets the most votes of the votes cast is often considered by most people with a three digit iq and a pulse to have recieved the "majority" of votes.


Yes, thank you for stating the obvious.

quote:

quote:


He only won because a greater percentage of the country was against McCain.


How presumptious of you to pretend to know why someone did no vote the way you wanted them to.


How do you know which way I wanted them to vote? Talk about presumptuous.

I do know that a lot of people vote for the lesser of two evils, and that just because the majority of voters elect a president, it hardly constitutes a blank check in which they would support everything and anything the president does. I hope you're aware of that.

Some people change their minds, and since presidents are not subject to recall elections, we don't really know if their support will last throughout a president's entire term of office.

quote:

Or perhaps they recognize that their vote does not mean shit.


Well, yes, *I* know that and *they* know that. The question is, do *you* know that?

quote:


quote:

What this means is that, in a rebellion, very few people would fight to protect the regime, except those who are paid to do so.


You mean like the military?


Yes, among others (law enforcement, intel community, etc.). Who did you think I meant?


quote:


Would you hazard a guess how much of a chance 10,000 armed insurrectionist would have against a rifle company (120 men+2 officers)of marines


Well, if we're guessing here, then I would guess that some of those 10,000 insurrectionists could conceivably be ex-military who could train the others in military tactics. Guessing even further, it's conceivable that some of those Marines might have friends or family members among the insurrectionists, so they might have divided loyalties and sympathies. Military people are not robots. They have hearts and minds, too.



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RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:41:36 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


Skipper, you missed the fun here during the last Presidential election, when President Obama was elected, 4 years ago.
It was crazy town here.

In fact, many of the most outlandish posters are not even around these days.


Well Marini ... that's not EXACTLY true. I've been on this site since 06.. and even more accurately, before they shipwrecked my first account that would go back to 02. However, as far as giving a rats ass about the CollarChat forums 06 is the point where I started reading. I just didn't ever post. The reason for that was that the Asshole ratio was WAY out of control. The people I cross sword with at least, have only mild caterwauling issues by comparison.
But yeah, you folks had a good many of the people we debate these days ACTUALLY PRESENT at that time


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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:49:42 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

In fact, many of the most outlandish posters are not even around these days.


Just to clarify though ... in my remarks about the problem being discussed, I am not talking about ANYBODY HERE.
But I'll say something I didn't before. Some people here know I have relatives that have served in an agency that deals with this shit. And Ted Nugent and similar fucking morons can make up all the 'interview' post-stories they want. Simply stated they aren't true. And the noose is gonna tighten. And when it does, these one time shot in the dark mother fuckers are long gone from the picture. They are ANYTHING but champions of freedom. And if they're going to run their mouth and make their subsequent speeches about free speech, they out to have some iron in their words instead of saying "that's not what I said", like Nugent or that PUSSIE in St. Louis.


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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:53:08 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm sure the Republicans and Democrats would prefer to look at things that way.


I could be wrong (and it wouldn't be the first or last time), but I don't think there are any politicians here. As I know both parties will use anything they can twist into an attack on the other, I was pretty much calling out that very tactic. If 23% voted "for" Obama, that doesn't mean 77% were against him. Hell, I cast my ballot McCain, but that wasn't because I supported McCain. I cast my ballot that way because I was against Obama and cast my ballot in the way I felt best to prevent an Obama Presidency. I was for McCain more than I was for Obama, but I was definitely not supportive of the McCain platform.


So, you voted for the lesser of two evils, which is what a lot of people do. It seems to be the same old story with every election, no matter which party's candidate gets into the White House. As I said, people don't vote for candidates as much as they're voting against the other candidate.

I don't think that we have much of a disagreement here. You may take issue with what I said, but in this thread, we're not really discussing election results as much as the overall mood of the public and whether an armed revolution might be justified under certain circumstances. And from what I can tell, there's a great deal of cynicism these days from both sides of the divide. If you talk to the average person of any political bent, they'll likely agree that the country is screwed and that it's going down the tubes. There's a profound lack of faith in the system, probably worse than I've ever seen in my lifetime.

Okay, so maybe it doesn't mean that 77% are actually against Obama (at least not to start a revolution), but this idea that the president is fulfilling the "will of the people" (just because he was elected by a majority of voters) is a load of poppycock, in my opinion.

quote:

quote:


If they were supporters, why wouldn't they vote?


Illness. Called in to work and had to work over time. Car broke down. Sick child. Etc. Many reasons.


Or maybe they just weren't all that enthusiastic about the candidate in the first place. As you pointed out, you weren't all that wild about the candidate you voted for, so maybe there are those who are even less so that they didn't even feel like bothering.

quote:


Further from the truth would be the losing candidate crowing about having the majority behind them. lol


I don't think anyone is actually saying that, though. Even the guy who wrote the editorial posted by the OP. The editorial writer was suggesting that the government was out of control, which carries the implication that they're not operating according to the principles of the Constitution which they've taken an oath to uphold.

quote:


I see your point and I get it. I don't agree with the analysis. If someone doesn't cast a ballot, they can't be considered supporters or non-supporters. That's just plain fact there. Doesn't matter who is making the claims, either.


I just prefer to look at different permutations. I like to think outside of the box, which might cause me to get a bit of flak from the closed-minded, but there are always different ways of looking at the facts.



(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 8:56:45 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Yes, but you'd think that people who consider themselves the elite in their society would have been smart enough to be able to figure it out before their government was overthrown.


Why would one expect something that has never happened in the history of the world to suddenly happen because they asked for it to happen?


Could you rephrase the question, please? What is the "something" you're referring to that has never happened in the history of the world?


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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:06:00 AM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
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Status: offline 		This is absurd. OWS is the group that is openly promoting violence and anarchy hoping that it will lead to a violent revolution. They were even planning on blowing up a bridge in Cleveland.

As opposed to  the Tea Party which actively promotes a political revolution. NO significant numbers of Tea party members have been arrested and in fact, I haven't heard of any.

You know 30 yrs ago old timers were saying 'you watch, someday there will be a revolution.' However, they never dreamed there would be an attempt to launch a revolution in favor of more government.

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:07:38 AM   
cuckoldmepls


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Status: offline 		Btw, the latest 2 treasonous acts that I have seen are allowing Chinese bridge contractors to take our jobs here in the states & they are now allowing a Chinese bank to take over one of our banks. Just the beginning I'm sure.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:08:45 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm not sure that there's no precedents as you overthrew your government once already. What did you think the American revolutionwar of independence was about?



We were discussing why the power structure in place were not responsive to the request of those whom they ruled, thus nessessitation of armed rebellion.
I am saying I am only familiar with one instance where when asked for a share of the power it was granted without bloodshed.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:22:19 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Well, if we're guessing here, then I would guess that some of those 10,000 insurrectionists could conceivably be ex-military who could train the others in military tactics.


Most knowledgible military folks will agree that it takes a minimum of two years to train a rifleman. Considerably more for command staff. For an officer to attend the "war college" or "staff college" requires about ten or twelve years from comissioning.
If you are familiar with the "bay of pigs" invasion, the training (done clandestinly in mexico)took more than two years. They hit the beach with the best of the best amphibious assault vehicles available at the time. They were led by a marine corp lt col. and had hundreds of veterans as part of the assault force. They never got off the beach. They never had a prayer against a real army. Just as the colonist never had a prayer against the britts but for the professional help they got from folks like mercer,lafayette etal. The artillery supplied by spain through the neherlands. And of course their greatest ally was the britt preoccupation with europe.


quote:

Guessing even further, it's conceivable that some of those Marines might have friends or family members among the insurrectionists, so they might have divided loyalties and sympathies.


Perhaps you could tell us how many times since their inception in 1798 the marines have mutnied?


quote:

Military people are not robots. They have hearts and minds, too.


Might want to check into a place called cam ne...or better yet samar. Their hearts and minds are oriented to unit,corp, country, everything else is a target of opportunity.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:27:00 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Yes, but you'd think that people who consider themselves the elite in their society would have been smart enough to be able to figure it out before their government was overthrown.


Why would one expect something that has never happened in the history of the world to suddenly happen because they asked for it to happen?


Could you rephrase the question, please? What is the "something" you're referring to that has never happened in the history of the world?

Where the power structure gave up any or all of it's power to those it ruled voluntarily as opposed to having it taken from them.
I can only think of one...when brazil seperated from portugal.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:27:09 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since you are so keene on math why don't you do the same calculations for the last 40 or so presidents. Then please come and tell us of your shocking discoveries.



Yeah, it amounts to approximately the same thing. Do you have a point here, or is this just more gainsaying on your part?



My point was and is that virtually all of the u.s presidents have been "elected" by similarly small percentage of the total electorate.


That was the same point I was making. That's why I consider it deceptive to say that the "majority" supports the president, whoever it may be. Just because the current president is Obama makes no difference. It would be the same for the Bushes, Clinton, Reagan - or just about any president.

quote:


Perhaps that is because most of the people in this country know that their vote for president has about as much usefullness as second hand shit paper.


I agree. This is similar to the point I made in my response to DesideriScuri.

quote:

The electoral college appoints the president. The electoral college is appointed by the state legislatures. The state legislatures are chosen by the people from a government approved list of acceptable candidates.


Yes.



Actually as the percentage of registered democrats who vote is smaller than the percentage of registered republicans who vote you might make that arguement for a republican but the likely support on election day of non voting registered voters is much more heavily weighted to democrats. meaning if they voted we'd rare have a republican president
quote:

Roughly the same proportions of self-identified Republicans and Democrats are regular voters (41% vs. 39%). But Democrats are more likely to be non-voters: 20% of Democrats say they are not registered to vote, compared with 14% of Republicans; among political independents, 27% say they are not registered to vote.

A registration gap also exists between liberals and conservatives, with 29% of self-described liberals saying they are not registered to vote compared with 20% of moderates and 17% of conservatives. However, there are only modest differences in the percentages of conservatives (38%), moderates (35%) and liberals (34%) who are regular voters
if anything when a democrat wins they have mre support than voting indicated

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: GOP Newsletter Calls for Armed Revolution if Obama ... - 5/10/2012 9:30:01 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

quote:

quote:


He only won because a greater percentage of the country was against McCain.



How presumptious of you to pretend to know why someone did not vote the way you wanted them to.

quote:

How do you know which way I wanted them to vote? Talk about presumptuous.



I said "pretend to know" not "wanted".
the answer is in the first line of this post....duuuhhhh


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Profile   Post #: 140
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