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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 1:56:30 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Ahem...

1)  Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)
 
2)  Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)
 
3)  For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalm 139:13-16)





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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 4:42:26 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
yeah yeah, so what. the other one still builds on it.


The way this has been presented both sides are grasping at straws in the Bible to find support for their positions on this one.

This isn't the usual one side looking at reality to find a line while the other obeys a ouiji board.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 4:52:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Why would you want to question....moreover.....slam someone's beliefs?

This is a subject where a great many people are looking to push their Biblical superstitions on everyone. That should involve some questioning, if you don't like that I recommend that you tell Christians to keep it in their church.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
People have valid reasons to believe what they do....

I don't think this is necessarly true, I'm sure the people who drank Jim Jones Kool-Aid had reasons but valid isn't a term that I'd use to describe them.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 7:06:43 AM   
RemoteUser


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Addressing the OP:

Your friend found a new way to see an old thing. In my books that is progress.

The new way doesn't have to be right, it doesn't have to be factual, it doesn't have to discredit its forerunners. It just has to be what it is; different, alternative, an expansion upon an existing foundation. Progress does not happen without growth, for better or worse.

I don't really care what the final truth is. I care about the evolution we take in our minds to see new roads to walk upon. Step at your own peril, isn't that always the way?

Metathinking - our GPS for the physical and abstract boundaries of our existence. Me likes.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 5:23:41 PM   
erieangel


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The sad fact is far too many Christians don't read their Bibles. They go to church. They listen to their preachers. They believe whatever it is their preachers tell them to believe. They don't question. They don't examine. They don't reflect. This happens especially if they've spent years in the same types of churches with the same types of preachers.


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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 5:37:06 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

The sad fact is...



... that the OP is completely FALSE, and YOU simply "believed" it.  Once again...


1)  Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)
 
2)  Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalm 22:9-10)
 
3)  For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalm 139:13-16)





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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 6:44:09 PM   
tweakabelle


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Re the OP
Thanks for bringing a fresh perspective to this discussion. It comes as no surprise that literal interpretations of the foundation text of any ideology either contradict themselves or they contradict the text. This outcome seems unavoidable to me, regardless of the particular text or ideology.

If this claim is valid, then it begs the question: Why do some people have such dogged faith in their belief systems they do when those belief systems are so obviously flawed (in a rational sense)?

It cannot be due to the internal coherence of the text/ideology can it? So why do they still believe? Increasingly, I find that the answers lie in the emotional needs of the believer. The text or ideology offers some emotional sustenance or fulfils a need not fulfilled elsewhere.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 6:48:28 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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"Flawed" to you... not to millions of others.



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 7:29:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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For those people who have been put off the label "atheist" by the antics of Dawkins, Hitchens et al, here's an interesting piece proposing the label "heretic' instead:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/5941/coming_out_as_a_heretic/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

So, who'd like to be first to come out as a heretic (Our own CM's TheHeretic is automatically disqualified ) ?


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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 7:31:57 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
yeah yeah, so what. the other one still builds on it.


The way this has been presented both sides are grasping at straws in the Bible to find support for their positions on this one.

This isn't the usual one side looking at reality to find a line while the other obeys a ouiji board.

i hate to argue semantics, but i already said that from start. building on it means they depend on it. i drew a difference in that one uses bible, and the other takes this false premise and builds on it.

meh semantics

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 7:52:26 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

To my mind, the thorny issue in abortion is when legal personhood (with rights distinct from, and perhaps opposed to, the mother's) begins. The sperm and egg, after all, are both alive, so "life" actually predates conception.

I don't find handfuls of Bible quotes particularly helpful in wrestling with the legal question. Does anyone else?

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 8:52:22 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
... that the OP is completely FALSE, and YOU simply "believed" it.  Once again...


Nope, he is talking about an actual position on this subject which is supported by scriptural evidence and even predates Christianity. Here's a little sampling of the position complete with scripture to let you know that it is out there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.theway.org/article.php?page=nov_11_2&lang=en
Here’s the answer to a question that’s often asked, “When does human life begin?” One belief is that human life begins at the moment of conception, but according to God’s rightly divided Word, the moment of conception is the moment the potential for human life begins. The potential for human life must be logically and clearly separated from human life itself. At the time of conception, when one sperm of a male, out of as many as a half billion possibilities, unites with one egg of the female, that is not yet the human life the Word of God refers to. Conception is only the beginning, the potential for human life. Human life, according to God and His Word, begins with the first natural breath after the baby is born. When a human being breathes on his own, then God labels him a “living soul.” This is when human life begins. Genesis 2:7 states this clearly:

Genesis 2:7:
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. He was not a “living soul” before. An embryo or a fetus may be considered a soul, but not a “living soul.” When a fetus takes its first breath, it becomes a living soul. Let’s consider, when does human life end? It ends with the last breath. So, when does human life begin? With the first breath.

The soul life is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood....”) and is passed on to the next generation when the sperm impregnates the egg at the time of fertilization. Then at birth, when the child takes his first breath, he becomes an independent living soul. The breath of life at birth ignites a series of vital changes in the cardiovascular and pulmonary systems of the newborn so as to sustain that child’s life functions independent of the mother. The breath of life occurs as the child breathes in through its nostrils or mouth, not through the connection to the mother. The unborn does not breathe on its own in the womb and therefore cannot receive the breath of life, which is the determining factor in being labeled a living soul.

What is developing in the womb is life as an appendage of the mother’s body; it is a human being once it is born and breathes on its own. And when a person takes his last breath, his soul is gone, his life is over (Psalms 146:4).


P.S. I should probably also point out that there are other Christian positions on the subject which haven't even made an appearance in this thread.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 8:55:23 PM   
DaddySatyr


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I find it preposterous that someone that mocks religion and the bible would use both to try and make their point. Way to be duplicitous!



Peace and comfort,



Michael


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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 9:22:16 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

...scriptural evidence



...which I've provided that proves the OP completely false.

quote:



Genesis 2:7:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



Exactly what part of creating LIFE FROM DUST vs. LIFE FROM LIFE (i.e., woman) isn't clear to you from the above?!!





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/11/2012 9:58:26 PM >


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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 9:28:15 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I find it preposterous that someone that mocks religion and the bible would use both to try and make their point. Way to be duplicitous!


Wow what a dishonest, duplicitous argument, well done.

Moving back to reality one can of course talk about religions one does not believe in and schools of thought within those religions. It would be kind of hard for comparative religion classes to exist otherwise

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 10:00:56 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

...what a dishonest, duplicitous argument



From both the OP and YOU -- that is, unless you think your mother was just a prop, and you were born from "dust", as opposed to woman?!!



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 10:10:31 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I find it preposterous that someone that mocks religion and the bible would use both to try and make their point. Way to be duplicitous!


[b] Click Here Please

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 10:33:00 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I find it preposterous that someone that mocks religion and the bible would use both to try and make their point. Way to be duplicitous!



Peace and comfort,



Michael


'Evidence' from the Bible is advanced by the pro-life side of the argument to justify its position. It's perfectly reasonable to accept the words of the Bible as argument for its position. Therefore it's equally reasonable to accept other words from the same text coming from the other side of the argument. A failure to consider the Bible by the pro-choice side would effectively be ignoring the claims of the pro-life side - that would be an arrogance.

I have a sneaking suspicion your real objection is that the Bible contains sections that appear to contradict the claims of the pro-life argument. This suggests that pro-lifers cherry pick the Bible to get evidence to support their position. It's bad enough that one half of the discussion cherry picks the Bible to support their position. But demanding that the other side refrain from any use of Bible, while using it selectively to support your position is, quite frankly, preposterous.

No one owns the Bible. It's been around for millennia and any one can introduce any evidence they consider relevant. Please stop being silly.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 10:47:28 PM   
AngelOfSilence


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quote:

... that the OP is completely FALSE
Incorrect. Your womb references are not germane.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/11/2012 10:52:57 PM   
AngelOfSilence


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quote:

Way to be duplicitous!
You don't really understand the word duplicitous, do you?

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