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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 6:01:34 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

You don't have to physically kill someone to "kill" them.


But it helps.

Seriously, though, there was nothing in your post to indicate that "They will kill us..." was anything but literal, and the subsequent claim of "speaking broadly, and metaphorically" comes off as spin..

You have some interesting points to make, and it seems a shame to detract from them with a dubious claim of victimhood.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 6:26:50 AM   
LadyRedRoseToo


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Status: offline 		well for starters, life began long before the sperm met the egg kiddos, live sperm and live eggs are required to begin the mutation that is a new life form. in reality life began long ago and conception is just a continuation of that life, a mutation caused by the joining of two different genetic sources. that is basic biology, why anyone argues the point is absurd!

as for the bible thing, it is a tale told by idiots. written by man, translated by man, adapted by those in power to fit their own ideas of what it should be. stories passed on orally to begin with, has anyone ever played the game telephone as a child? how often is that information delivered exactly as originally stated? when it was finally written down, how can anyone say the words on the page are the original story without embellishment or adjustment to fit the story teller or audience? when it was translated from one language to another who can guarantee the translation was accurate? we know the books included have been altered by politics and those in power at various points in time. it is a collection of stories, tales of caution, bits of wisdom that were current in their time, guidelines for treating each other well. how anyone can claim religious texts are the word of god is beyond me. god didn't write them! man did. in a thousand years if it still exists it might be viewed as an amusing bit of primative fiction. kinda reminds me of the old joke about a priest and a rabbi discussing donations to their respective congregations. the priest asks the rabbi about how he handles donations to god and the rabbi says something to the effect of "i throw the money up in the air and whatever god wants he keeps!" god, should he/she exist, really isn't interested in the pettiness of man. to claim we are his/her sole concern is pretty arrogant. to claim any one religion is THE religion endorsed by god is ridiculous!

i'm not saying there is no higher power, something created this existence. are we significant to that creation? i doubt it. for all we know we are a single cell in a much larger organism. who really knows? nobody! and that is the mystery of life. stop worrying and enjoy it while you have it, try to be the best person you can be, and leave it at that.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 6:48:57 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You don't have to physically kill someone to "kill" them.


But it helps.

Seriously, though, there was nothing in your post to indicate that "They will kill us..." was anything but literal, and the subsequent claim of "speaking broadly, and metaphorically" comes off as spin..

You have some interesting points to make, and it seems a shame to detract from them with a dubious claim of victimhood.


Feel free to take it literally then. No dubious claims of victimhood here....

But truly, when I use the term "culture wars" I don't necessarily mean a war fought with soldiers and weaponry, and my statement about killing and posthumously "baptizing" was meant to illustrate where Christian (and Islamic) doctrine ultimately leads. And people do need to think about the fact that some religions are, in fact, more tolerant than others. Unfortunately, Christianity and Islam are not.

And I know people will say, oh but Christianity has evolved, but then those who are practicing these more "watered-down" forms of the religion must also ask themselves at what point is it no longer really the religion anymore? From a historical perspective there is only Christian religion and that is the Greek Orthodox church. Everything else since then is really something else, and very much begs the question of whether scripture and doctrine mean anything if you can simply continue to re-invent - discard what you don't like, add what you do, and call yourself a different name and carry on. Any Christian religion that is truly tolerant of people of other faiths cannot really call themselves Christian according to the very fundamental principles of the religion. Proselytization and responsibility for others' souls are basic tenets of Christianity. The religion was not designed to be a tolerant religion. And the way in which Christianity spread throughout many parts of the world (through fear and persecution) is testament to that.

Once we can pick and choose which scripture matters - really why does any of it matter at all....


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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 7:19:28 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Pick your poison...it's really immaterial...the fact is, when cells divide...life has begun.


I got a fairly decent sunburn across my back this weekend, how many lives do you suppose I killed by not wearing a shirt? Does anyone anywhere give so much as a shit about those lives except to the extent that my back is a little sore?

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:17:47 AM   
Arturas


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Status: offline 		"Before you were born I knew you...".

This bible verse rings true with all of you. You all know you had a life before this one and knew other souls and knew God before you were born in this life. Each of you remember bits from earlier lives and you know you came into this life at a point determined not by the current church or the pro-life or pro-choice proponents, instead it was determined by you, your spirit entered that tiny body at a point in time determined by you, based on your plans for that life, for your new life.

Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:35:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Organized? I think not. Not for me anyway.


Do you have an objection? I don't mean in the sense of creating churches or writing doctrine but in the sense of passing the hat around to hire some lobbyists.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 9:00:10 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

"Before you were born I knew you...".

This bible verse rings true with all of you.


Nope, here's the thing, it doesn't.

It rings true for you because you believe it not the other way around. It is not the case that you believe it because it rings true.

For racists, racism rings true. For flat earthers the idea that the earth is flat rings true. For birthers the idea of a conspiracy theory to protect our kenyan president rings true.

It's just your unconscious mind giving you a thumbs up about your preconceptions that's why the human race has such fragmented views on what rings true.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 9:05:33 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

"Before you were born I knew you...".

This bible verse rings true with all of you. You all know you had a life before this one and knew other souls and knew God before you were born in this life. Each of you remember bits from earlier lives and you know you came into this life at a point determined not by the current church or the pro-life or pro-choice proponents, instead it was determined by you, your spirit entered that tiny body at a point in time determined by you, based on your plans for that life, for your new life.

Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.



I'll take your points one at a time.

The verse doesn't ring true for me or any of several Billion people on this planet who aren't Judaeo-Christian.

As for your second point, there are millions of Bible Beaters who would beg to differ. They believe the writings of a Fifth Century monk who decided that the soul entered the body at conception.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 9:14:32 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

"Before you were born I knew you...".

This bible verse rings true with all of you.


Nope, here's the thing, it doesn't.

It rings true for you because you believe it not the other way around. It is not the case that you believe it because it rings true.

For racists, racism rings true. For flat earthers the idea that the earth is flat rings true. For birthers the idea of a conspiracy theory to protect our kenyan president rings true.

It's just your unconscious mind giving you a thumbs up about your preconceptions that's why the human race has such fragmented views on what rings true.


Right on the money, GS!!

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 9:19:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Organized? I think not. Not for me anyway.


Do you have an objection? I don't mean in the sense of creating churches or writing doctrine but in the sense of passing the hat around to hire some lobbyists.


I have no objections to the Church/state seperation watchdogs. None at all. Love their billboards. Some of the Humanists groups tend to get kinda like churches with their need for brotherhood and rituals. That turns me away. I suspect lobbying in Washington would be a lost cause. I wouldn't wish to throw my money down that rat hole. Just my

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 9:28:45 AM   
submaleuk12


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Status: offline 		I remember watching a video on abortion and it shows the featus trying to move away from the prongs that are trying to kill and cowering away it, it's awful, there's plenty of vids showing that on YouTube, it wasn't even a late abortion either, I think that's what swung it for me.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 12:44:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

I remember watching a video on abortion and it shows the featus trying to move away from the prongs that are trying to kill and cowering away it, it's awful, there's plenty of vids showing that on YouTube, it wasn't even a late abortion either, I think that's what swung it for me.


Was that the one where the fetus grabbed the prongs and broke them over its knee?

Really? Did you deduce than that the fetus had a nervous system and soul in tact? Did it sway you any that the propaganda video was entitled "Silent Scream?" Or was that the one where the fetus carried a sign that said "My mom was raped at knife point by a stranger and I don't give a shit!"

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 12:49:05 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.


Exactly. Why any State Legislatures pass anti-abortion Laws based on such misguided and presumptive thinking is also beyond comprehension, and yet they do so to dictate the decisions made by women for their own bodies and lives.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 12:54:20 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

I remember watching a video on abortion and it shows the featus trying to move away from the prongs that are trying to kill and cowering away it, it's awful, there's plenty of vids showing that on YouTube, it wasn't even a late abortion either, I think that's what swung it for me.


You know a fetus will move away from anything encroaching on it, even a mothers or fathers touch? part of the Autonomic nervous system.
My eldest used to kick me if I put a cup of tea on my belly. when having my pre natal exams she would move from the fingers being pressed into my belly.Let alone move, turn, roll and hiccup. But not in the early stages when most abortions are done. Propaganda for pulling on heart strings is typical of those videos.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 12:56:19 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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If vincentML's ugly rant is any example of tolerance for others' views, RESPECT is a rare commodity amongst the Atheists, I think, submaleuk12. 



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 12:57:28 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Not very original MSLA

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 1:06:22 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Did you think I was trying to be "original", or merely demonstrating the hypocrisy, intolerance, and lack of respect of Atheists?!!  This might help clear things up ---> http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4118954

Hmmm... not showing much "RESPECT", were you?!!



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 1:21:05 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12
I remember watching a video on abortion and it shows the featus trying to move away from the prongs that are trying to kill and cowering away it, it's awful, there's plenty of vids showing that on YouTube, it wasn't even a late abortion either, I think that's what swung it for me.


Can you tell me which abortion procedure involves prongs, I'm not familiar with that?

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 2:59:06 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.



Precisely. I take it that "anyone" must include the various Churches, pastor, legislatures and any others that insist that life beings at conception or any other similar arbitrary point. These peoples' claims must be "beyond belief" too, according to your argument.

Thus the entire foundation premise of the 'pro-life' movement is demolished. So too any argument that relies on a claim that life begins at any given specific point. I'm glad that we have finally found a point of agreement.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/15/2012 3:06:52 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:31:48 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

and
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.



Precisely. I take it that "anyone" must include the various Churches, pastor, legislatures and any others that insist that life beings at conception or any other similar arbitrary point. These peoples' claims must be "beyond belief" too, according to your argument.

Thus the entire foundation premise of the 'pro-life' movement is demolished. So too any argument that relies on a claim that life begins at any given specific point. I'm glad that we have finally found a point of agreement.


Churches, pastors and others who insist life begins as conception err on the side of caution because life does indeed, without any argument possible, indeed starts somewhere from conception to birth. Since only that particular spirit, the one whose body is being destroyed in an abortion, knows when they entered that little body, and it could happen anytime during that timespan I outlined, then the church and any prudent man must say "life begins at conception" since this is the earliest possible time for "life", the time, in your case, the time your spirit entered your body.

Thus, "pro-life" is not a "movement" but a recognition that when one does not know when life begins for any given person then one must not make a mistake in deciding when that is. Thus, in order not to make a mistake, "life begins at conception".

I do hope this clears up the miss-conception you have been given about why prudent men (and women) say "life begins at conception".



< Message edited by Arturas -- 5/15/2012 8:53:34 PM >

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