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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:35:18 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.


Exactly. Why any State Legislatures pass anti-abortion Laws based on such misguided and presumptive thinking is also beyond comprehension, and yet they do so to dictate the decisions made by women for their own bodies and lives.


Please see my just recent post above related to why prudent men (and women) presume when life begins. It is not because we really know . (Instead) it is because we do not but we do know the range of time it can happen and the earliest time is "at conception".

< Message edited by Arturas -- 5/15/2012 8:51:19 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:48:06 PM   
Arturas


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I'll take your points one at a time.

The verse doesn't ring true for me or any of several Billion people on this planet who aren't Judaeo-Christian.

As for your second point, there are millions of Bible Beaters who would beg to differ. They believe the writings of a Fifth Century monk who decided that the soul entered the body at conception.


Good evening. Thanks for your reply. First let me clear up a miss-understanding. Just because I quote the Bible does not mean only Judaeo-Christians believe this. Most of the people on Earth will have a past life memory and/or deja vue experiences. Indeed, large segments of non-Judaeo-Christian populations share the belief in the spirt entering the new-born at a time chose by that spirit and that this is not the first life they had; I would suggest more people than not believe this.

As for millions of "Bible Beaters" who believe life begins at conception, they believe that only the Lord and the spirit of that person whose body is newly conceived knows when that "life" begins and so they must assume at conception because to do otherwise and take the new life a one of our fellow spirits, perhaps even your soul mate, seems not the thing to do by any thinking man or woman.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 5/15/2012 8:50:42 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/15/2012 8:53:34 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

I'll take your points one at a time.

The verse doesn't ring true for me or any of several Billion people on this planet who aren't Judaeo-Christian.

As for your second point, there are millions of Bible Beaters who would beg to differ. They believe the writings of a Fifth Century monk who decided that the soul entered the body at conception.


Good evening. Thanks for your reply. First let me clear up a miss-understanding. Just because I quote the Bible does not mean only Judaeo-Christians believe this. Most of the people on Earth will have a past life memory and/or deja vue experiences. Indeed, large segments of non-Judaeo-Christian populations share the belief in the spirt entering the new-born at a time chose by that spirit and that this is not the first life they had; I would suggest more people than not believe this.

As for millions of "Bible Beaters" who believe life begins at conception, they believe that only the Lord and the spirit of that person whose body is newly conceived knows when that "life" begins and so they must assume at conception because to do otherwise and take the new life a one of our fellow spirits, perhaps even your soul mate, seems not the thing to do by any thinking man or woman.

Got any references for that or are you talking out your ass?

My reference to millions of Bible Beaters who believe human life believes at conception is first referenced by a 5th century monk. How convenient that you should ignore that little fact as the first known reference to humanity beginning at conception and it not being mentioned in the bible.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 4:14:12 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

 
Did you think I was trying to be "original", or merely demonstrating the hypocrisy, intolerance, and lack of respect of Atheists?!!  This might help clear things up ---> http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4118954

Hmmm... not showing much "RESPECT", were you?!!




Why should Atheists RESPECT something they consider a laughable fairy-tale, or those who they think are so gullible to believe it?

Maybe if people in Congress got laughed at when they spouted crazy-talk, we'd be a healthier, happier nation.

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ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 6:07:32 AM   
vincentML


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ORIGINAL: Arturas

Churches, pastors and others who insist life begins as conception err on the side of caution because life does indeed, without any argument possible, indeed starts somewhere from conception to birth. Since only that particular spirit, the one whose body is being destroyed in an abortion, knows when they entered that little body, and it could happen anytime during that timespan I outlined, then the church and any prudent man must say "life begins at conception" since this is the earliest possible time for "life", the time, in your case, the time your spirit entered your body.

Thus, "pro-life" is not a "movement" but a recognition that when one does not know when life begins for any given person then one must not make a mistake in deciding when that is. Thus, in order not to make a mistake, "life begins at conception".

I do hope this clears up the miss-conception you have been given about why prudent men (and women) say "life begins at conception".




It seems to me you are conflating a religious concept with a biological definition. Well, obviously you are. Earlier, you said this:

quote:

Each of you remember bits from earlier lives and you know you came into this life at a point determined not by the current church or the pro-life or pro-choice proponents, instead it was determined by you, your spirit entered that tiny body at a point in time determined by you, based on your plans for that life, for your new life.


So, my take away is that life began BEFORE conception by your philosophy. The life of the spirit pre-exists the life of the body. Is it not then presumed in your philosophy that the life of the spirit is not dependent upon the temporal body? So, my question is: what does it matter in which temporal body the spirit resides? Doesn't your philosophy render the body just a drive-in motel where the spirit resides for a short while before moving on? So, why is abortion such a problem? Obviously, I find your philosophy confused.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 6:09:11 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

and
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


Why anyone thinks they know when life begins for everyone is beyond belief.



Precisely. I take it that "anyone" must include the various Churches, pastor, legislatures and any others that insist that life beings at conception or any other similar arbitrary point. These peoples' claims must be "beyond belief" too, according to your argument.

Thus the entire foundation premise of the 'pro-life' movement is demolished. So too any argument that relies on a claim that life begins at any given specific point. I'm glad that we have finally found a point of agreement.


Churches, pastors and others who insist life begins as conception err on the side of caution because life does indeed, without any argument possible, indeed starts somewhere from conception to birth. Since only that particular spirit, the one whose body is being destroyed in an abortion, knows when they entered that little body, and it could happen anytime during that timespan I outlined, then the church and any prudent man must say "life begins at conception" since this is the earliest possible time for "life", the time, in your case, the time your spirit entered your body.
a
Thus, "pro-life" is not a "movement" but a recognition that when one does not know when life begins for any given person then one must not make a mistake in deciding when that is. Thus, in order not to make a mistake, "life begins at conception".

I do hope this clears up the miss-conception you have been given about why prudent men (and women) say "life begins at conception".

I'm afraid all this last post of yours has achieved is to confirm the demolition of the premise of the pro-life argument that "Life begins at conception".

You concede that the pro-life position is " a recognition that when one does not know when life begins for any given person" (my emphasis). I believe this is a valid claim. There is no agreement on when life begins. That being so, the only position a prudent person can adopt is "I don't know when life begins but it is at some point between conception and birth".

To assert that "life begins at conception" is to attribute a definite starting point, to make a statement of fact, to make a dogmatic assertion of certainty, which is impossible given that " one does not know when life begins". No dogmatic assertions are tenable on the basis of self-professed ignorance.

Once again the foundation premise of the pro-life position is demolished. I am beginning to wonder why you insist on the pro-life position when all your posts succeed in doing is demolishing it. It would make more sense for you to adopt the pro-choice position.

However please feel free to continue posting in this vein, making the pro-life arguments look like the mindless assertions of pre-medieval dogma with no basis in knowledge, fact or rationality that they are.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/16/2012 6:10:17 AM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 10:50:11 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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Status: offline 		How about we apply the same standard for life on fetus we apply to other things? Homostasis is the they key. Till then if not for religous texts we wouldnt even debate it

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 11:45:06 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

Homostasis is the they key. Till then if not for religous texts we wouldnt even debate it

Is it? Oh.

It would appear that while some "religious texts" are written documents, others walk and talk.

K.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/16/2012 1:01:57 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

How about we apply the same standard for life on fetus we apply to other things? Homostasis is the they key. Till then if not for religous texts we wouldnt even debate it


Science. It works, bitches!

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 6:31:26 AM   
AngelOfSilence


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quote:

Sperm enters...cells divide...life begins.
Not so. Both the sperm and the egg were alive before that.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 6:38:37 AM   
AngelOfSilence


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quote:

I'm honestly not aware of Christians' killing nonbelievers in any notable way recently.
Don't watch the news?
100,000 and counting.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 2:27:51 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Why should Atheists RESPECT something they consider a laughable fairy-tale...



Hmmm... so a LIVING BABY IN THE WOMB is a "laughable fairy-tale" to Atheists, huh?!!  Funny, and here I thought the millions of ultrasounds performed every year proved the growing baby as REAL -- and not some "fairy-tale", let alone a "laughable" one?!!  Thanks for clearing that up and speaking on behalf of all Atheists.  



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 2:47:30 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Why should Atheists RESPECT something they consider a laughable fairy-tale...



Hmmm... so a LIVING BABY IN THE WOMB is a "laughable fairy-tale" to Atheists, huh?!!  Funny, and here I thought the millions of ultrasounds performed every year proved the growing baby as REAL -- and not some "fairy-tale", let alone a "laughable" one?!!  Thanks for clearing that up and speaking on behalf of all Atheists.  




A new low . . . taking farglebargle's words out of context and misrepresenting them. That tactic is so transparent and sophomoric . . . .and it sucks. The "fairy-tale" that many Atheists disrespect is about the supernatural world and the guy in the sky. FB said not a word about living babies in the womb being fairy tales. That is your construct. If you are going to debate, please do so with some degree of honesty and dignity. You are capable of that, aren't you? Otherwise, a cheap shot.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/17/2012 2:49:25 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 3:27:48 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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A "low" in YOUR biased mind, but recall... the person YOU INSULTED (for merely holding a different view from your own) had stated:

'I remember watching a video on abortion and it shows the featus trying to move away from the prongs that are trying to kill and cowering away it, it's awful, there's plenty of vids showing that on YouTube, it wasn't even a late abortion either, I think that's what swung it for me.'


To which YOU INSULTINGLY/MOCKINGLY REPLIED:

'Was that the one where the fetus grabbed the prongs and broke them over its knee?  Really? Did you deduce than that the fetus had a nervous system and soul in tact? Did it sway you any that the propaganda video was entitled "Silent Scream?" Or was that the one where the fetus carried a sign that said "My mom was raped at knife point by a stranger and I don't give a shit!"'


So the "low" is YOURS!!!  The poster was referencing the ABORTION of a LIVING FETUS!!!  Got that?!!  And your pal chimed in with Atheists not having to "RESPECT something they consider a laughable fairy-tale".  You and you ilk may view a LIVING FETUS as a "laughable fairy-tale", and see fit to JOKE ABOUT ABORTION -- most I do not find an OUNCE of HUMOR in such DISGUSTING rantings!!!  THE "LOW" IS YOURS -- AND REMAINS SO!!! 




< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/17/2012 3:33:06 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 4:03:27 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		I was mocking anti-abortion propaganda. If you had any sense you would have realized that. Again, another instance of your taking comments out of context or of your inability to comprehend what is being said.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 4:14:19 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Status: offline 		YOU were MOCKING another's beliefs on LIFE, as well as MOCKING ABORTION, as noted by your references to the "fetus" itself!!!  If you had any sense, you would have realized that and not done so. Your inability to comprehend even your VILE behavior is astounding.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Was that the one where the fetus grabbed the prongs and broke them over its knee?  Really? Did you deduce than that the fetus had a nervous system and soul in tact? Did it sway you any that the propaganda video was entitled "Silent Scream?" Or was that the one where the fetus carried a sign that said "My mom was raped at knife point by a stranger and I don't give a shit!"




DISGUSTING!!!



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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 5:09:45 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Why should Atheists RESPECT something they consider a laughable fairy-tale...



Hmmm... so a LIVING BABY IN THE WOMB is a "laughable fairy-tale" to Atheists, huh?!!  Funny, and here I thought the millions of ultrasounds performed every year proved the growing baby as REAL -- and not some "fairy-tale", let alone a "laughable" one?!!  Thanks for clearing that up and speaking on behalf of all Atheists.  




Meh. Life is cheap, and the world is full of people. Nothing makes any particular baby 'special' UNLESS IT'S YOURS.

The "Fairy Tale" is that a non-viable fetus has anything 'special' about them which makes them ineligible for abortion. Everyone knows you don't get a soul until you're like 6 months, or two years old... I forget exactly...

And is a blastocyst really a baby? I certainly don't think so.

How many souls are in each blastocyst, by the way?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/17/2012 5:12:11 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 5:35:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Everyone knows you don't get a soul until you're like 6 months, or two years old... I forget exactly...



K.

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 5:40:36 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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For those who believe that their religious scripture supports the idea that a fetus is a baby/a being with a soul, I ask you this. Why is it that no major religion of which I am aware has any type of religious rite for a miscarriage? Why is there no naming ceremony, death sacrament, last rites, final prayers, funeral, etc. etc. etc. mandated by any major religion for a miscarriage? If religious scripture really supports this idea then why are so many souls dispatched without the proper religious rites? Why is there no requirement in any major religion that a religious leader be notified of a miscarriage?

Because none of these religions saw the fetus as a baby or a being with a soul. Period. End of story.

Everything that is going on now is post hoc justification.

There are approximately 700,000 miscarriages a year in the U.S. alone. How many of you have attended a funeral service for a miscarriage? For any of you who have had the misfortune to have a miscarriage, what were the religious rites involved at the time. What did your priest/rabbi/imam/pastor do? What did your congregation do? After all, if according to certain religions, a soul has died then where are the religious rites?

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/17/2012 5:42:30 PM >

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RE: Life does not begin at Fertilization or conception ... - 5/17/2012 5:58:36 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Nothing makes any particular baby 'special' UNLESS IT'S YOURS.



Quoted for posterity... yeah, screw anyone else's "baby" -- only "YOURS" matters.  Boy, these Lefty Atheists are just sooooooooo COMPASSIONATE?!!



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