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RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 7:16:57 AM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

Interesting post from the resident mountain climber.
There will always be MANY who enjoy pointing fingers and criticizing
others, but offer no viable plan or solutions.

Have a great day!

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 21

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 7:23:03 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?

I personally wouldn't think that at all. I'm against illegal immigration to a large extent the way it's playing out. I just don't think ethnic profiling, splitting up families with ridiculous laws and strong man positions for the purpose of garnering votes.

And frankly, I can't remember ANY post by you that would leave me with the impression that you were bigoted against anyone ... except perhaps AMC Pacer Driving Bastids like that Marc2b guy

So you would have kicked out the founders?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SternSkipper)

Post #: 22

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 7:42:34 AM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people in this country. I am more interested in preserving what is beautiful and makes this country worth living in. More people means more strain on resources, more intensive farming, more sprawl, less open space, more traffic, more, more, more. I don't know why people believe we can continue to crowd people into this country and continue to have quality of life. Living like rats in a tin can is not a fate i wish on myself, my children or my children's children. Maybe unlimited immigration made sense in the days of manifest destiny. It doesn't now.
I agree that pursuing employers is a great way to discourage illegal immigration, and I am all for it. But if you are jailing those who employ " poor people seeking a better life for their children", then aren't you denying them that "better life"? How are they supposed to feed said children? The whole idea of prosecuting employers, but not vigorously pursuing illegals, makes no sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
the first thing to show you're not bigoted is to establish what "harm" immigrants are doing. A good grounding in the history of immigration in this country would be helpful in not bringing up the same nonsensical complaints as were made against previous "undesirable" groups.

Then an acknowledgement that it is inevitable and unavoidable that people will seek a better life and the only way to curb undocumented immigration is by vigorously pursuing those who employ them not by harassing poor people seeking a better life for their children.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 23

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 8:01:15 AM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

I want to thank those that manage to discuss this topic,
rather than lowering themselves to calling other forum
members derogatory names for voicing their thoughts and opinions.

We are all entitled to be able to voice our opinions on issues that
effect us, our futures and our quality of life in this country.

Working together is usually the best way to go.

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/11/2012 8:08:19 AM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 24

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 8:09:36 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people in this country. I am more interested in preserving what is beautiful and makes this country worth living in. More people means more strain on resources, more intensive farming, more sprawl, less open space, more traffic, more, more, more. I don't know why people believe we can continue to crowd people into this country and continue to have quality of life. Living like rats in a tin can is not a fate i wish on myself, my children or my children's children. Maybe unlimited immigration made sense in the days of manifest destiny. It doesn't now.
I agree that pursuing employers is a great way to discourage illegal immigration, and I am all for it. But if you are jailing those who employ " poor people seeking a better life for their children", then aren't you denying them that "better life"? How are they supposed to feed said children? The whole idea of prosecuting employers, but not vigorously pursuing illegals, makes no sense.

it doesnt make sense to us. we generally dont think in terms that it is all about the munni hunni! they do. many here do as well.

there are only 2 concerns with government; munni power all else is secondary if at all.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 25

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 8:42:56 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Interesting post from the resident mountain climber.
There will always be MANY who enjoy pointing fingers and criticizing
others, but offer no viable plan or solutions.

Have a great day!

I'm not pointing a finger at you or criticizing you or your position. I was explaining why people are getting you confused with bigots because you asked, not defending or justifying their confusion.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 5/11/2012 8:43:46 AM >

(in reply to Marini)

Post #: 26

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:07:27 AM

Marini

Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline

Thanks sweetie, I thought you meant it that way.
It's like the elephant in the middle of the room, that many
people are scared to have an opinion about, because they
are scared not to be seen as pc and might be called racist.

As a Black woman I can say a lot about Black people and
it's usually going to be cool, you? Not so cool at all!
Peace

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 27

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:38:02 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I agree that pursuing employers is a great way to discourage illegal immigration, and I am all for it. But if you are jailing those who employ " poor people seeking a better life for their children", then aren't you denying them that "better life"?
How are they supposed to feed said children?

Could you be any more disingnuous?
Do you not see the hypocracy in your statement. If you want them out of our country why this faux concern for their welfare?

quote:

The whole idea of prosecuting employers, but not vigorously pursuing illegals, makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense to bigots...
but:
To those non-bigots with a three digit iq and a pulse
It works like this.
Crossing the boarder illegally is a misdomeanor.
Hiring someone who has crossed the boarder illegally is a federal felony punishable by 5 years in the federal slam(no parole from federal custody...a day showing is a day owing...no time off for good behavior) and $250,000 fine for each violaton. When several thousand ceo are doing 100+ years in the federal slam and the fed treasury is trillions of dollars richer (estimated 12 million who have crossed the boarder illegally X $250,000=3,000,000,000,000)who would hire someone who had crossed he boarder illegally?
The above can be accomplished with no cost to the taxpayer and positive cashflow to the treasury. The only reason anyone could have to waste taxpayers money chasing down those brown people you seem to hate so much would be bigotry.
Simply stated since there would be no work here they would go home as has been evidenced by recent developments(more mexicans crossing the boarder south than north.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/11/2012 9:39:48 AM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 28

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:39:45 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people in this country. I am more interested in preserving what is beautiful and makes this country worth living in. More people means more strain on resources, more intensive farming, more sprawl, less open space, more traffic, more, more, more. I don't know why people believe we can continue to crowd people into this country and continue to have quality of life. Living like rats in a tin can is not a fate i wish on myself, my children or my children's children. Maybe unlimited immigration made sense in the days of manifest destiny. It doesn't now.
I agree that pursuing employers is a great way to discourage illegal immigration, and I am all for it. But if you are jailing those who employ " poor people seeking a better life for their children", then aren't you denying them that "better life"? How are they supposed to feed said children? The whole idea of prosecuting employers, but not vigorously pursuing illegals, makes no sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
the first thing to show you're not bigoted is to establish what "harm" immigrants are doing. A good grounding in the history of immigration in this country would be helpful in not bringing up the same nonsensical complaints as were made against previous "undesirable" groups.

Then an acknowledgement that it is inevitable and unavoidable that people will seek a better life and the only way to curb undocumented immigration is by vigorously pursuing those who employ them not by harassing poor people seeking a better life for their children.

If therer were no jobs for them here the immigrants would not come here. It's really that simple.

As to crowding arguments. Population density in the US is 84 people per mile^2. In the UK, home to some of the most beautiful countryside anywhere as well as untamed moors and the Scottish highlands, it's 650 people per mile^2. Ireland is 154 per mile^2.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html

< Message edited by DomKen -- 5/11/2012 9:40:23 AM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 29

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:47:16 AM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

Immigration isn't as big an issue up here, except to the politicians that identify too strongly with American counterparts.

So I looked up a few sites with information about illegal immigration in a place like Europe, where walls go down instead of coming up. I found this article of interest, especially because of a quote contained therein:

"They rob houses, buses, trains — anything. And no one cares," Boulis says. "If we complain, we're racists. I expect something awful to happen, like it did in Norway, because people here are under way too much pressure from this."

Interesting. No, it's not an answer to the issue, just a comparative exploration to give a little extra food for thought - especially for those who do wish to propose answers.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 30

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:47:44 AM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

Do you really believe space is the issue? Little simplistic, wouldn't you say?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 31

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 9:49:42 AM

papassion

Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline

You phonys are so concerned about illegal immigration because your Liberal base tells you to be outraged! The Latins themselves are getting screwed by unlimited immigration!

What happens when you have 1000 people applying for work in a field that needs 250 people? thats right, the employer can offer a "take it or leave it" wage and get away with paying LESS and LESS. Like I always said, Liberals/progressives's heart is in the right place but they have the logic and naitivity of a 10 year old.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 32

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 10:10:27 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Do you really believe space is the issue? Little simplistic, wouldn't you say?

quote:

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people in this country. I am more interested in preserving what is beautiful and makes this country worth living in. More people means more strain on resources, more intensive farming, more sprawl, less open space, more traffic, more, more, more. I don't know why people believe we can continue to crowd people into this country and continue to have quality of life. Living like rats in a tin can is not a fate i wish on myself, my children or my children's children. Maybe unlimited immigration made sense in the days of manifest destiny. It doesn't now.

Please make up your mind.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 33

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 10:12:36 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

You phonys are so concerned about illegal immigration because your Liberal base tells you to be outraged! The Latins themselves are getting screwed by unlimited immigration!

What happens when you have 1000 people applying for work in a field that needs 250 people? thats right, the employer can offer a "take it or leave it" wage and get away with paying LESS and LESS. Like I always said, Liberals/progressives's heart is in the right place but they have the logic and naitivity of a 10 year old.

To those non-bigots with a three digit iq and a pulse
It works like this.
Crossing the boarder illegally is a misdomeanor.
Hiring someone who has crossed the boarder illegally is a federal felony punishable by 5 years in the federal slam(no parole from federal custody...a day showing is a day owing...no time off for good behavior) and $250,000 fine for each violaton. When several thousand ceo are doing 100+ years in the federal slam and the fed treasury is trillions of dollars richer (estimated 12 million who have crossed the boarder illegally X $250,000=3,000,000,000,000)who would hire someone who had crossed he boarder illegally?
The above can be accomplished with no cost to the taxpayer and positive cashflow to the treasury. The only reason anyone could have to waste taxpayers money chasing down those brown people you seem to hate so much would be bigotry.
Simply stated since there would be no work here they would go home as has been evidenced by recent developments(more mexicans crossing the boarder south than north.

(in reply to papassion)

Post #: 34

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 10:20:57 AM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The only reason anyone could have to waste taxpayers money chasing down those brown people you seem to hate so much would be bigotry.

I may be wrong, but I inferred that the underlying issue here is the creation of a disposable working class with no rights to speak of. The example I remember being broadcast repeatedly to Canadians was one where an illegal is grievously injured, and cannot access any health care because of their status. (But then, health care in Canada buys votes.)

It's one thing to waive some of your rights, and another to have none. I know that the creation of the theoretical aforementioned disposable working class is also not necessarily intentional. Once you have it, though, then what?

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 35

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 10:50:54 AM

MasterSlaveLA

Posts: 3991
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

I'd love to hear your fix for the problem.

No, actually... I doubt YOU would -- as all the Left EVER does is spit blather and bile, playing THE RACE CARD when they have NO FACTS, NO SOLUTIONS, and have lost the debate.

The solution is SIMPLE:

1) SEAL THE BORDER -- using technology, fencing, and the National Guard.

2) A $10,000 fine PER EMPLOYEE for ANY employer hiring illegals; MANDATORY Proof-of-Citizenship for ALL students at ALL schools.

3) After 1-2 above are accomplished, institute a Guest Worker/Guest Visa program, and let AmEx for Visa/Mastercard manage it.

4) Review/Streamline the immigration process for those who wish to become LEGAL U.S. citizens.

5) For those that are already here illegally:

(a) Calculated fine/back tax for each year they've been here illegally (paid in monthly installments).

(b) Apply for a Guest Worker Card/Work Visa/Student Visa and/or citizenship just like everyone else -- to the back of the line.

(c) Special consideration for those that have been here 25+ years, and are in good community standing, to be able to "fast track" citizenship -- which does NOT extend to other family members here illegally. Those born in this country (via an illegal immigrant parent), and which are over a certain age (10+ years old, possibly) must ALSO apply for a Student Visa/Citizenship, but may also be "fast tracked", as they are here through no fault of their own.

*Note: I'm sure the above will not be good enough for the Left, and will be viewed as both "racist" and "heartless" -- as THEIR only solution is to leave the borders open, and grant instant citizenship to ANYONE who comes here illegally.

_____________________________

It's only kinky the first time!!!

(in reply to Mupainurpleasure)

Post #: 36

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 10:52:45 AM

RacerJim

Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
the first thing to show you're not bigoted is to establish what "harm" immigrants are doing. A good grounding in the history of immigration in this country would be helpful in not bringing up the same nonsensical complaints as were made against previous "undesirable" groups.

Then an acknowledgement that it is inevitable and unavoidable that people will seek a better life and the only way to curb undocumented immigration is by vigorously pursuing those who employ them not by harassing poor people seeking a better life for their children.

Direct Harm:
Direct harm illegal immigrants are doing to legal tax-paying citizens of Maryland. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates the illegal alien population in Maryland to be 300,000. The direct cost to Maryland taxpayers forced to support the illegal population include education, health and incarceration. The documented cost of educating from kindergarten to 12th grade the 80,300 children of illegal aliens is more than $966 million annually, according to the July 2010 report by the Federation for American Immigration Reform. An additional $250 million is spent providing special English instruction to an estimated 35,000 children of illegal aliens. The total cost for educating the children of illegals is more than $1.2 billion a year. Health care for illegals in Maryland costs $167 million a year and incarceration of illegal alien criminals costs $29 million.

Indirect harm:
The illegal alien invasion of Maryland has resulted in a corresponding increase in violent crimes, criminal gang activity, threats to public health, and jobs taken from legal American citizens. This indirect harn, though incalculable, is no doubt substantial.

Maryland has an estimated budget deficit of more than $1 billion, but would have a surplus were it not for the costs of supporting the illegal alien population.

It is indeed inevitable and unavoidable that people will seek a better life but the first thing to show your veracity is to stop calling them undocumented and call them what they are...ILLEGAL.

Then an acknowledgement that the best way to curb ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is to secure our borders, immediately return illegal border crossers back across the border, outlaw sanctuary jurisidictions and organizations like CASA de Maryland, La Raza, et al which aid and abet illegal immigrants in large part with legal citizens' tax-dollars, virgorously persue and deport ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and their children who "game the system" to get more benefits from all levels of government than the average legal American Senior Citizen or Military Veteran and, lastly, close down those who employ ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 37

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 11:16:49 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The only reason anyone could have to waste taxpayers money chasing down those brown people you seem to hate so much would be bigotry.

I may be wrong, but I inferred that the underlying issue here is the creation of a disposable working class with no rights to speak of. The example I remember being broadcast repeatedly to Canadians was one where an illegal is grievously injured, and cannot access any health care because of their status. (But then, health care in Canada buys votes.)

It's one thing to waive some of your rights, and another to have none. I know that the creation of the theoretical aforementioned disposable working class is also not necessarily intentional. Once you have it, though, then what?

If as you say this is nothing more than a device to create a disposible work force then nothing need be done.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/11/2012 11:20:44 AM >

(in reply to RemoteUser)

Post #: 38

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 12:00:46 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

I already have. I should also add more stress on wildlife populations. Personally, I would rather have viable populations of bears, wolves, salmon, elk, and owls than see how many people can fit in a limited space.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Do you really believe space is the issue? Little simplistic, wouldn't you say?

quote:

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people in this country. I am more interested in preserving what is beautiful and makes this country worth living in. More people means more strain on resources, more intensive farming, more sprawl, less open space, more traffic, more, more, more. I don't know why people believe we can continue to crowd people into this country and continue to have quality of life. Living like rats in a tin can is not a fate i wish on myself, my children or my children's children. Maybe unlimited immigration made sense in the days of manifest destiny. It doesn't now.

Please make up your mind.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 5/11/2012 12:02:17 PM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 39

RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 12:06:07 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

It seems that putting their employers in jail would be a rough break for the 11 million or so illegals who are already here. So, I guess those of you who are advocating this aren't really interested in helping people find "a better life for their children'? But you ease your guilt by saying that at least you aren't chasing people down to deport them or sealing the borders. Seems like hypocrisy to me, but whatever.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 40

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