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RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 12:55:14 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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With the resulting loss of biodiversity and quality of life. No thanks. More people = less quality of life.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


As to crowding arguments. Population density in the US is 84 people per mile^2. In the UK, home to some of the most beautiful countryside anywhere as well as untamed moors and the Scottish highlands, it's 650 people per mile^2. Ireland is 154 per mile^2.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html


The UK may have some of the most "beautiful countryside anywhere" at 650 per square mile as you say.  However, the biodiversity of the UK is not being sustained, so that beautiful countryside is becoming more and more devoid of wildlife.  The issue is not "space" it is resources, particularly water.  Yes, you probably can squish every American into a space the size of Rhode Island.  Who the hell would want to live like that?  And, the biggest contributor to population growth in this country is immigration. 

So 8 times our population density makes it hard to maintain the environment. That still means the US could easily absorb pretty much every immigrant that wants to come here. Mexico's entire population is 110 million which is less than 1/3r our present population. If they all moved here tomorrow our pop density would only increase to 112 per mile ^2.



< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 5/12/2012 1:01:51 PM >


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RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 12:57:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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No worries. At that point we'd move in and take over their oil fields, spreading everybody out again.

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 1:12:13 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I have a couple of threads that I plan to start, about some of the issues concerning illegal immigration in the United States.

This particular thread is about one of my pet peeves.

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?


That is the strategy of the communist, socialist, leftist, progressive, liberal agenda, propaganda and indoctrination. If you don't agree with their political beliefs you must have some disease. And then they invent labels for such diseases like xenophobia, islamophobia, homophobia and the like. It's an attempt to shut you up. They are the 'gutmenschen". They are always right and you are always wrong. That is their pathetic thinking and paradigma. Usually they cannot win a debate on facts or figures, all that is left is to label you in a certain way to make other people think that you are an abberation. Ronald Reagan said: "don't inhale"




welcome to the boards, you will find that 90% are exactly that way. Especially if you are not a trougher.


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 1:17:55 PM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Would you like to discuss the topic of this thread?


There is no cost effective way. It was done in the 30s, 50s, and in 1997 to a lesser degree and ech time was a disaster adn 1997 led to huge settlements to USA citizens who were scooped up through profiling.

The other issue is you send families packingthathave been here 10 years and in 10 yrs you will have 3 100 percent non assimiliated a merican citizens returning freom Mexico for every iullegal you send back. Sending them back ignores all the USA citizens they have as children and would prevent the normal 2nd genmeration asimilation that takes place with immigrants. Elimanate the advantages of hiring illegals, increase border security, set up a path for citizenship for those already here and maintain severe penelties for hiring illegals so no business ever will again. Worked for voter fraud. make the consequence severe enough and the crime goes away

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 2:52:28 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Would you like to discuss the topic of this thread?



Sure, I will bite!

The title of THIS thread is: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does not make you a bigot.

In this case, it means you have an issue with unbridled illegal immigration, and has nothing to do with who or what the person's race IS.






Correct me if I am wrong but we are talking about illegal immigration yes?
I have shown that it is more cost effective to arrest the felon rather than the misdomeanor. Anyone who persist in seeking the arrest of the misdomeanor is clearly a bigot.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 3:00:49 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

The problems with repatriation
1. What about the millions of children who are US citizens?


They are not being deported.

quote:

What happens when they return at legal age?


How do you know that they left? Many stay with relatives who are citizens


quote:

You think the experience of being removed from their homeland and sent to meixico is going to create good citizens?


This is speculation not based on any facts. And is really not germane to the topic

quote:

2. I suppose you bothered to look up the california repatriation in the 30s and if you did you know the issues and if you didn'ty well you really have no business talking about public policy as if you have a clue if you are to lazy to even see if wwhat you wish to happoen has been tried



If you had read the whole thread you would have noted that I am the one who brought that subject up in the first place.
Those one million u.s. citizens who were uncerimoniously chucked out of thier country were not being "repatriated" They were thrown out for being brown in public.
Where have I stated what I wish would happen?

(in reply to Mupainurpleasure)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 3:20:23 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Would you like to discuss the topic of this thread?


quote:

There is no cost effective way.



What is not cost effective about enforcing the existing law against hiring those who cross the border illegaly?


quote:

It was done in the 30s, 50s, and in 1997 to a lesser degree and ech time was a disaster adn 1997 led to huge settlements to USA citizens who were scooped up through profiling.


Please show the mass arrest anad convictions of employers of those who have crossed the borders in the 30s,50s or 97.

quote:

The other issue is you send families packingthathave been here 10 years and in 10 yrs you will have 3 100 percent non assimiliated a merican citizens returning freom Mexico for every iullegal you send back.


Enforcing the law against employers who hire those who have crossed the border illegally does not deport anyone. What it does is it makes employment of those who have crossed the border a not starter. If there is no work they will leave on their own. Which is what is happening right now because the ecnomy is in the shitter there is no work for them so the flow right now is more south than north.


quote:


Sending them back ignores all the USA citizens they have as children and would prevent the normal 2nd genmeration asimilation that takes place with immigrants.


It seems that you are trying to make an emotional appeal to justify illegal immigration. I have seen many bigots use this arguement to justify corporate access to slave labor.
But:
That is not the topic of this op.


quote:

Elimanate the advantages of hiring illegals,


Would that mean the enforcement of existing laws against those who employ those who have crossed the border illegally?

quote:

increase border security,


If there were no jobs there would be noone crossing the border illegally. Since I have demonstrated that enforcing the law against those who hire those who have crossed the boarder illegally what reason would you have to increase border securty?

quote:

set up a path for citizenship for those already here and maintain severe penelties for hiring illegals so no business ever will again. Worked for voter fraud. make the consequence severe enough and the crime goes away


How much more severe do you want it? It is currently 5 years in the federal pen with no parole and a$250,000 fine for each violation.

(in reply to Mupainurpleasure)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 3:28:25 PM   
Mupainurpleasure


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who is in jail for five yrs for hiring illegals?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/12/2012 5:15:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

who is in jail for five yrs for hiring illegals?



The law says that if you hire someone who has crossed the border illegally the penality is 5 years in the federal slam and a $250,000 fine for each violation.
If no one is in jail for this who's fault is it?
City cop,county sherriff,or private citizen may make an arrest of a fellon in commission of a felony.
So if you are not in favor of folks crossing the border illegally you now know how to stop it.
I understand there is a bounty paid by the fed for the arrest and conviction of felons...I do not remember exactly the percentage...something less than 5%.
What would be the snitche's portion of a $250,000 per violation fine on someone who had only 100 workers who had crossed the border illegally...somewhere between $250,000 and $1,250,000?

(in reply to Mupainurpleasure)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 7:46:50 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

who is in jail for five yrs for hiring illegals?


The law says that if you hire someone who has crossed the border illegally the penality is 5 years in the federal slam and a $250,000 fine for each violation.
If no one is in jail for this who's fault is it?
City cop,county sherriff,or private citizen may make an arrest of a fellon in commission of a felony.
So if you are not in favor of folks crossing the border illegally you now know how to stop it.
I understand there is a bounty paid by the fed for the arrest and conviction of felons...I do not remember exactly the percentage...something less than 5%.
What would be the snitche's portion of a $250,000 per violation fine on someone who had only 100 workers who had crossed the border illegally...somewhere between $250,000 and $1,250,000?


How does an employer know if an illegal has crossed the border illegally or legally? As far as I know there is no way for an employer to tell that.. they can check e-verify if the ssn is valid or not but that still does not tell an employer if the illegal entered legally or illegally.. If the illegal entered as a student with the appropriate visa but then overstayed or if the illegal entered as a visitor and then overstayed or if the illegal entered under a temporary worker visa but then overstayed, and so on, they entered legally and then became illegal..

so if this law actually states that employers that hire someone who has crossed the border illegally, how does an employer actually knowing that get proven? If that law exists exactly as you state, then its almost unenforceable, imo..

eta- anyone legal, illegal or even not in the US can incorporate an LLC or company and get a number from the IRS and work for other companies as a subcontractor, many illegals do that also to get around e-verify, etc.. so this law you are speaking of does not seem to cover that situation anyway.. so therefore illegals will still be in the US & working..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 5/13/2012 7:54:29 AM >


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RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 8:59:43 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I have shown that it is more cost effective to arrest the felon rather than the misdomeanor. Anyone who persist in seeking the arrest of the misdomeanor is clearly a bigot.


False dilemma, by ignoring the possibility that one might support the arrest of both crimes, seeing as they are in fact, both crimes.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 10:26:16 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

The law says that if you hire someone who has crossed the border illegally the penality is 5 years in the federal slam and a $250,000 fine for each violation.
If no one is in jail for this who's fault is it?
City cop,county sherriff,or private citizen may make an arrest of a fellon in commission of a felony.
So if you are not in favor of folks crossing the border illegally you now know how to stop it.


Surely, accusations require evidence; evidence requires search warrents for records. How does the average citiizen go about making such an accusation? Does one run down to the County Sheriff or to the FBI and say: yanno, I think General Electric is employing illegal aliens? Not likely.

There are some laws that are too impolitic or too awkward to enforce. This seems to be one of them. Liberals are against for humanitarian reasons; Agriculture and Hospitality corporations are against for cheap labor reasons.

You are spitting into the wind on this one, I think.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 10:31:26 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I personally wouldn't think that at all. I'm against illegal immigration to a large extent the way it's playing out. I just don't think ethnic profiling, splitting up families with ridiculous laws and strong man positions for the purpose of garnering votes.

And frankly, I can't remember ANY post by you that would leave me with the impression that you were bigoted against anyone ... except perhaps AMC Pacer Driving Bastids like that Marc2b guy




So you would have kicked out the founders?


Is this a Native American thing you're dumpster diving for now? Should I hold your ankles?

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 11:54:22 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?


Maybe the answer to your question is in our history, Marini.

1882 . . . Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act [repealed in 1943]

1907 . . . The Gentleman's Agreement, an accord between the United States and Japan to restrict Japanese migration, effectively ended the influx of Japanese nationals to the United States. California state law reinforced this anti-Japanese sentiment by prohibiting Japanese immigrants from owning property or leasing farmland.

1924 . . . Congress enacted the Quota Act, which limited the number of immigrants allowed to enter the United States to three percent of their nationality already residing in the country, in 1890, a Law universally seen to be aimed at Italians and Jews

1939 -1954 . . . the INS deported three million undocumented and documented Mexican immigrants and U.S. citizens through an anti-Mexican campaign known as "Operation Wetback."

1986 . . . Congress passed the employer sanctions.

There is an implied institutional racism pervasive throughout our history, so every act of government is subject to scrutiny, and despite our protestations we all share some degree of race loyalty and race bias.

Just my

Regards,

vincent





(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 2:10:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

There is an implied institutional racism pervasive throughout our history, so every act of government is subject to scrutiny, and despite our protestations we all share some degree of race loyalty and race bias.


Before anyone jumps on this let me state I think implicit institutional racism and individual race loyalty/race bias are probably tribal characteristics of all nations and held to varying degrees by all humans. Am I mistaken?

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 2:14:46 PM   
MyGarage


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Oh my gosh.

This is so ridiculous.

The FACT is, I'd prefer to see my fellow Americans have jobs, rather than foreigners.

So, we have record unemployment, but we should just be flooded with foreigners so we can DEPRESS OUR OWN WAGES.

Well, that's brillance.

America isn't a suicide pact.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 2:40:22 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyGarage
Oh my gosh.

This is so ridiculous.

The FACT is, I'd prefer to see my fellow Americans have jobs, rather than foreigners.

So, we have record unemployment, but we should just be flooded with foreigners so we can DEPRESS OUR OWN WAGES.

Well, that's brillance.

America isn't a suicide pact.


Got to love the ignorance on display here. Yes, area companies are annoyed that they cant find workers that both have the skills they want at the cost that works for them. So they look to foreign talent companies that can find people that have the skills and willing to work for peanuts (aka 20-40% less than those in the area). Once here, the person realizes they could be paid much more. Those that go down that path are soon dropped for another worker. The dropped worker now is screwed. Their patron will not 'protect' them from law enforcement; they are to afraid to seach the law since in their country that was as evil and corrupt as the criminals. The person tries to make money any number of ways while staying under the radar. For some, they not only get by but prosper; for most others, they sadly dont.

Likewise, college education in other countries cost much less than here in America. Those individuals can net masters and Ph'Ds with little to no debt; compare that to most college graduates whom carry a $300-1400/month bill to pay their loans off. The company doesnt want the bad PR if they had to lay off several American workers with these debts, when its easier to higher a foreign on a work visa that owes nothing. It costs alot to go to college in America, but study after study shows that a college degree person makes more money than someone with just a high school diploma. An so millions of American graduate with their degree saddled with a debt that is on average $23K-34K. About 10% of cases their debt is in the range of $75K.

What is the incentive to higher a US worker, when the company can higher a foreign for 1/2 the cost and 1/4 the stress of dealing with the worker? Most foreigner workers don't even have an ounce of knowledge on their rights as a US worker, or if terminated, their rights under the The US Labor Relations Board. You cant blame the companies, since they are doing a regular business practice: Keep Costs Low. In fact, isnt a Republican idealogy that states that businesses should be unobstructed from regulations and rules to maximize their net profits? And that those companies should be allowed to hire who they want, according to Republicans? Further, some Republicans feel children under the age of 16 should be allowed to work, that 'hazardous' situations should be reduced in scrutiny and oversight, and even remove overtime pay laws so companies can force their workers to 60/hours a week.

During the Bush Administration, he went after illegal immigrants directly and simply ignored the companies that help traffic them in, in the first place, as most of them contributed (aka bribed) to his campaign for governor and than on into president. I do laugh when I hear conservatives say they hate illegal immigrants getting into the nation, and than write a 'blank check' for Republicans to do exactly what the conservatives bitch at Democrats (whom arent doing this) for doing to the nation.

(in reply to MyGarage)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/13/2012 4:40:22 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyGarage

Oh my gosh.

This is so ridiculous.

The FACT is, I'd prefer to see my fellow Americans have jobs, rather than foreigners.

So, we have record unemployment, but we should just be flooded with foreigners so we can DEPRESS OUR OWN WAGES.

Well, that's brillance.

America isn't a suicide pact.


Clearly, middle class manufacturing jobs have been lost from outsourcing to China, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, etc. How many ipads are made in America? Not a one! So, don't blame the undocumented immigrant farm worker or hotel housemaid for the unemployment we have now. Those menial jobs were occupied by migrants before the crash of 2008. Their presence here did not cause the three decades long outsourcing nor the credit crash that happened because of financial gambling on naked deriviatives. Wages in manufacturing jobs have been depressed by work sent to Bejing and Shanghai and by the failure of banks to play their proper role in a Captialist scheme.

(in reply to MyGarage)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/14/2012 7:36:27 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mupainurpleasure

who is in jail for five yrs for hiring illegals?


The law says that if you hire someone who has crossed the border illegally the penality is 5 years in the federal slam and a $250,000 fine for each violation.
If no one is in jail for this who's fault is it?
City cop,county sherriff,or private citizen may make an arrest of a fellon in commission of a felony.
So if you are not in favor of folks crossing the border illegally you now know how to stop it.
I understand there is a bounty paid by the fed for the arrest and conviction of felons...I do not remember exactly the percentage...something less than 5%.
What would be the snitche's portion of a $250,000 per violation fine on someone who had only 100 workers who had crossed the border illegally...somewhere between $250,000 and $1,250,000?


How does an employer know if an illegal has crossed the border illegally or legally? As far as I know there is no way for an employer to tell that.. they can check e-verify if the ssn is valid or not but that still does not tell an employer if the illegal entered legally or illegally.. If the illegal entered as a student with the appropriate visa but then overstayed or if the illegal entered as a visitor and then overstayed or if the illegal entered under a temporary worker visa but then overstayed, and so on, they entered legally and then became illegal..

so if this law actually states that employers that hire someone who has crossed the border illegally, how does an employer actually knowing that get proven? If that law exists exactly as you state, then its almost unenforceable, imo..


An employer uses e verify. If the ssn bounces, the employer is required to go through a validation process to see if there is a glitch in the system or if the ssn is in fact not the employee in question.
Early on I noted the distinction between those who cross the border illegally and those who have overstayed their visa. In he later case the expired visa would be on record. If no such expred visa is on record we would have someone who had crossed the border illegally.


quote:

eta- anyone legal, illegal or even not in the US can incorporate an LLC or company and get a number from the IRS and work for other companies as a subcontractor, many illegals do that also to get around e-verify, etc.. so this law you are speaking of does not seem to cover that situation anyway.. so therefore illegals will still be in the US & working..



The tip(taxpayer identification number)is issued for the purpose of collecting taxes and does not confer the right to be in the country legally or to work.
With the irs it is all about the money...will the irs snitch you off to ins???? in a fuckng heart beat they would.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/14/2012 7:40:44 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I have shown that it is more cost effective to arrest the felon rather than the misdomeanor. Anyone who persist in seeking the arrest of the misdomeanor is clearly a bigot.


False dilemma, by ignoring the possibility that one might support the arrest of both crimes, seeing as they are in fact, both crimes.



In times of limited resources would you not agree that arresting felons is a higher priority?
If by enforcing the felony the misdomeanors leave with no cost to you then your persistence in the later would be prima facia evidence of your bigotry.
As for false delma perhaps you should go back and find out what that means?
Clue:
It does not support your bigotry.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 120
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