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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:25:57 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		As long as you feel sorry for denying him or saying no... you can't hold on to your dominance in the situation because of his bottoming. Start with how you view it. Are you the dominant? If you are, then you let him know how he is to conduct himself when you say no and let him know that nothing else is acceptable. You say what you mean, mean what you say, stick to your guns and don't feel guilty about it. He won't die if he is denied. He won't be harmed. However, you establish the rules. He is begging for more. If you can give him some basic rules and those rules just about cover any situation, like no means no, don't ask again, then you establish something you don't have to heavily monitor and an expectation of better behavior. The penalty has to hurt if he acts out. No kink punishment is rather effective, but if it is needed all the time... it just isn't worth the effort.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:28:48 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I am reminded of Telly Savalas in Tahoe, standing in line and arguing, and the guy just kept repeating to him in an even, pleasantly helpful voice:

But Mr. Savalas, YOU set your own limit when you came in at $50,000 in IOUs.



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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:29:58 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		It is power exchange, as Ron says, but in my world it's not power STRUGGLE. So yes, show us what a push looks like, and what triggers it.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:37:42 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

As long as you feel sorry for denying him or saying no... you can't hold on to your dominance in the situation because of his bottoming. Start with how you view it. Are you the dominant? If you are, then you let him know how he is to conduct himself when you say no and let him know that nothing else is acceptable. You say what you mean, mean what you say, stick to your guns and don't feel guilty about it. He won't die if he is denied. He won't be harmed. However, you establish the rules. He is begging for more. If you can give him some basic rules and those rules just about cover any situation, like no means no, don't ask again, then you establish something you don't have to heavily monitor and an expectation of better behavior. The penalty has to hurt if he acts out. No kink punishment is rather effective, but if it is needed all the time... it just isn't worth the effort.


This

In my house, the fastest way to not get what you want is to whine about not getting what you want.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/11/2012 2:45:09 PM >

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:46:04 PM   
Alecta


Posts: 1355
Joined: 1/19/2010
Status: offline 		It doesn't sound like your problem is that he's fighting you for control at all, but that he sometimes slips up and forgets his place. You are lucky that he realises afterwards too that he was wrong and wants to work with you to correct it! But you need to realise that enforcing discipline is your responsibility.

It is in everyone's nature to try and get more for less, to toe the line. You don't need to break him, you just need to remind him, firmly, without remorse, who's boss. So none of that "feeling bad for him not getting any", please. He will get some when YOU feel like it, simple as that.

It may help you to think of his moments of defiance like when a recovering alcoholic falls off the wagon. He doesn't actually want to be "drinking" again, he just couldn't help himself. Help him. Give him stronger reasons to keep himself away from it. Give him something else to keep his mind occupied, keep him away from temptation.

The list of hard rules is a very good idea and you really need to get on that. They don't have to be a question of routine, they can be a matter of ad hoc behaviour, such as "Drop everything and appear before me within x minutes whenever I call you by your slave name" or "Never leave a room before I do", even "Never contradict me in public", or a matter of subtle routine like "Dinner must always be ready at x pm", "there must always be x available and ready in the house", etc. Rules can also be in the negatives, such as, "Do not ask for x. You will get it when I want to give it to you, but you must never ask for it".

Rules must then be accompanied by a systematic punishment that must be enforced (it's WORK being the Dom/me! lol) This should be things that he does not enjoy, and things that he notices to the extent that it is a reminder of what he'd done wrong and serves as a deterrent. If timing is an issue, you could instate a system where he has to do something easily done immediately when caught, then be punished fully afterwards when there is time. Or even if you just show you KNOW when he makes the mistake, and punish him afterwards. As with children and animals. one must always be consistent, and remember to hold the attention of the sub/pet/child when issuing punishment so they understand and know when they're being punished and what for.



(grammar edit)

< Message edited by Alecta -- 5/11/2012 2:55:18 PM >

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:50:59 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		I dont do punishment dynamics, but Alecta is right about consistency and recognizing when he slips up. Rules that arent enforced are pointless.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 2:51:32 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		While I agree with the prevailing thought that you should put your foot down as the dominant and not capitulate to his whining, I would also like you to define "play" in the context of the OP. I say this because I checked your interests lists and see a couple of things that could be used as play without much effort on your part.

For example, you have movies, speech restrictions and objectification listed among the things you like. If he wants to play and you don't, what's to stop you from having him act as a footstool for you while you kick back and watch a movie? Tell him he is to remain silent and still unless he starts to get a cramp or something else that would require him to speak or move. (No, an itch on his nose does not qualify. Let him suffer.)

So is he asking for a more strenuous level of S&M or are you balking at the very idea of playing because you're just not in the mood? That might be an issue to consider.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 3:01:39 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I dont do punishment dynamics, but Alecta is right about consistency and recognizing when he slips up. Rules that arent enforced are pointless.



I don't like a punishment dynamic either. However, there are ramifications and if I ever did or do feel the need for punishment, it isn't going to be fun! I better not have to do it again. If I do... I won't... then of course he won't get anything at all, ever. If he can't respect what he has agreed to do and needs constant punishment, correction, reminding or attention... I have to wonder about what is wrong. Even a three year old can get the rules and not make to many mistakes. Why can't an adult? What are they getting out of it?

I am not getting what I want out of it... so there you have it. Do it or don't, I don't care, but I call the shots, you obey the shots or somebody is walkin. Honor your word.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 3:35:47 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I would not be in a full time relationship where there was a consistent punishment dynamic in place (on either side of the kneel).

Being sub means you obey (to me).

However, they are married and transitioning to a D/s relationship, and in that situation I would expect some testing. As Ron mentioned, it's normal.

But what do you do when a sub tests? As Lockit said: As long as you feel sorry for denying him or saying no... you can't hold on to your dominance in the situation . . .

I get that the OP sees him as a stubborn sub. I see her as an inadequate dominant. BTW: This may sound like a harsh assessment, it's merely honest.



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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 3:42:17 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		We still dont know what "pushing" looks like. I'm not passing any judgment here.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 3:54:23 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The other thing is that the op hasn't thought about what she needs to be in the mood to play. If it only happens every six months, then he's reasonable to be complaining.

So op, what would help you be in the mood? A bubble bath when you get home? Him massaging your feet once you get some privacy? You need to figure that out. And yes, putting him in restraints and then clothespins won't take much energy from you but will give you much amusement and should scratch his itch.

Beyond that, trade sleepovers with friends so you know you will have next Saturday night off for play. You go nap while he gets dinner ready. Have him massage your feet or whatever after dinner. Then play for a while. Decide ahead of time what you're going to do, write it down on an index card. Tell him to get whichever implements you've decided. When you're done, get a good night's sleep and have him clean up in the morning before you pick up the kids.

It's hard to be in the mood for play with family around all the time. So plan for your night off.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 4:08:13 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		The OP said this:

". . . it seems like he gets whiney or gets mad when we don't play every night or when he doesn't get his way. He seems to push back more as I gain more control."

For whatever reason, I'm the kind of person people come to seeking advice. I've heard this same scenario many times. A male sub first into kink persuades his wife to join, and begs her to dom him. Slowly she gets into it, eventually finds she likes it, and they begin to transition from RP to an actual D/s (or M/s) relationship.

But wait ! She starts to feel her dom legs and suddenly he starts kicking back. He's a newish male sub and thought it was going to be all about his fantasies and his kink time. Now he's learning, the reality is not like that.

DES does have a great point about the small children. The OP would be well served by telling him if he wants her in the mood to play, he needs to take on more child care, more housework, or whatever it is that would free up her time.



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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 5:14:29 PM   
cheilo


Posts: 9
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Dee.  Sounds to me like he's Topping from the bottom, and trying to inspire you into being more harsh.  He's pushing you to see just how strict you will be with him.  My suggestion is to let him know, when he whines or pouts or gets pissy, he gets even less of what he wants.  Good behavior gets play time.  Pleasing you gets play time.  Be strict.  Lay down the law.  Follow thru.  He'll love it!  

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 7:20:08 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		In my honest opinion there is no such thing as topping from the bottom. More often it is a case of bottoming from the top.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 7:53:43 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Another vote for cease and desist when the whining starts.  Giving in is nothing but a display of who is really in control when the manipulation comes into play.  It also shouldn't be about changing kinks.  That still reinforces that you will continue in some capacity.

After eight years, the concept of testing such a basic level premise is a long shot, in My opinion.  If the husband is only interested in the illusion of control, I would see it more.  It's not that unusual for some males to proclaim they want a Dominant when what they really want is a service top.

ETA - Please do not send friendship invitations based on the minimal criteria that a person participated on a thread.  It can be seen by some as frivolous and a lack of a realistic approach to the definition of the word "friend".


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 5/11/2012 8:07:54 PM >

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 8:12:30 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDeeSTL

Hello all. My husband and I have been working towards a 24/7 Mistress/Sub relationship for about 8 years. I have come a VERY long way towards enjoying having control and dominating him. (At first I was super against it because I was raised to be polite at all times and respect your Husband.) I have come to love getting my way and having control.

At first he seemed to know way more than I did and was always giving me advice and ideas. Now I feel like I have really settled into my role, but it seems like he gets whiney or gets mad when we don't play every night or when he doesn't get his way. He seems to push back more as I gain more control. (Which doesn't sense cause this was his freaking idea!)

I am wondering if there is some sort of training I can do to really get my complete control through his head. I want to completely break his spirit of taking back control.

Hopefully you ladies can help me cook up some good ideas.

Thanks,
Mistress Dee


Sometimes disconnects like this boil down to different needs with regards to frequency. He wants kink every night, maybe you want it once a week. He wants kink with every sexual encounter, you want it every few times. (as an example). He wants his "favorite kink" satisfied every time or as first priority, you want your favorite kink, and you're the femdom, after all.

In a balanced conversation, discuss needs and expectations and make sure he understands that you don't have unlimited time/energy and MOST importantly, he must prefer AUTHENTIC, organic dominance from you, on your terms, rather than pressured, whined-into, "oh fine, I will do it, just shut up" dominance from you - and, if he steps back and gives you space, he will get that and more. He will get dominance with spontaneity, and that adds the element of surprise and gives you full control.

If he still is absolutely unsatisfyable (subs are like horny teenagers at times who just learned masturbation for the first time), identify some tasks you can give him that he can execute that burn off his submissive energy without draining your energy. Is he into humiliation? Send him shopping at victoria's secret for his and hers panties. Make him wear pantyhose all day and keep a journal about it, and you read it at the end of the day (this is not to be confused with him emailing you 17 times a day asking you for direction or feedback). The key is to give him things that occupy his submissive mind, burn off some of that submissive energy, but don't require your full energy, so you can save up that energy for your "play time".

Akasha


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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/11/2012 8:19:27 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		FR

You say he wants rules so he knows where he is. Maybe just one rule: when you say 'enough', the discussion is over and he needs to accept that he's not going to get his way tonight.

That way it's a single, clearly signaled line that he cannot cross. Simples.

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/12/2012 10:22:07 AM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Go to the Garden Shop and get a gigantic terra cotta pot.  Have him stand in the fucking thing and act like a plant.  If he withers, send him to the curb with the rest of the garbage.



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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/12/2012 7:02:32 PM   
Wickad


Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		(fast reply)

Strange as this might sound ...

I'd suggest that the next time he pressures the OP for play she simply tell him to go to the bathroom and masturbate (by himself, no porn) and then come back when his head has cleared. The OP might be surprised at how that changes the whole thing. He might even realize right then how inappropriate his behaviour is rather than it taking until the next day for him to figure out.

Wickad

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RE: How to deal with a stubborn sub? - 5/14/2012 6:57:18 PM   
CougarRick


Posts: 288
Joined: 5/5/2012
Status: offline 		Completely new to this, but I imagine if I had a Mistress every once in awhile I might push the boundaries just to be put in my place. Sounds crazy, but I think having her remind me under no uncertain terms exactly who is in charge in the relationship might be reassuring at times. But then I am pretty fucked up so I may be way off base here


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDeeSTL
He seems to push back more as I gain more control. (Which doesn't sense cause this was his freaking idea!)


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