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RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 10:18:41 AM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		No. If I've accepted him as being the 'winner' then that is all I need to do. I don't need to test it out. If he falters from time to time it's only human and I don't lose faith in his ability to lead, I wait it out and help if I can. I don't think testing him means anything to me at all other than I don't trust my own judgement.

If he meets my criteria to be my leader than testing him would mean that I am questioning myself. So either I accept him or I don't. I'm perfectly free to do either, if I've made up my mind then the struggle is done.

(in reply to Bls419)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 11:18:25 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		My first thought after reading the other posts was that I almost wish I owned one of the many lovely sub ladies that posted on this thead. It was my first thought because in the 24 years I have been at this I have only met one sub that didn't at some point push back against what I was telling them to do. Having thought about it though....maybe not. Over the years I have also met a few subs that seemed to be very quick to give up their submission. Give up themselves in a way and it has always bothered me. I believe that everyone has a point, a line in the sand you might say, that they can not or will not just cross. I also believe that each of these people that knows where their line is has every right to push back against those asking them to cross it. I think it is very human and in a manner right to test those in control to see if they really are in control. I believe anyone entering any kind of realationship has the right to ask the other to prove their competence or face their culpability. In your journal you said "Hope strengthens. Fear kills" which may or may not be correct but I think that it would do you well to add to this thought with the understanding that inquiry does neither of those things. It only allows us to better decide what to do.

*or, to make it a little more simple*

As my kid would say it...question everything, sooner or later you will find your right answers.

Good luck.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to Bls419)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 11:34:21 AM   
Englishcrumpet


Posts: 43
Joined: 2/28/2012
Status: offline 		i probably shouldnt comment on this thread..., if anyone 'took me down' id probably burst into tears..,  - im not into conflict at all and im like NuevaVida, i dont really do all of that stuff, im way more wired to please and im not here for power struggles at all.

but harking back to the past and when i was a rookie - most of the struggle i had was internal and manifested as fiesty, flighty and resistant and i remember wishing a guy would just come along and take what i didnt have the guts to give.

theres nothing wrong with 'take down' if thats youre thing and it is for quite a few people i believe - but for me it was more to do with the fact that i wanted to submit and give i just didnt have the guts and to start with i needed someone to make me, least i thought so, but in fact i didnt, i just needed someone to lead me until i felt safe.

< Message edited by Englishcrumpet -- 5/14/2012 11:38:31 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 11:38:31 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

but harking back to the past and when i was a rookie - most of the struggle i had was internal and manifested as fiesty, flighty and resistant and i remember wishing a guy would just come along and take what i didnt have the guts to give.




I think this captures some of what I meant far more clearly than I put it across.
And Jeff:

quote:

We don't engage in combat with all the ensuing pain simply to find out "who will win". The answer is always, "we will both lose."


Wise words. Once again, I aspire to be more like you guys. Well, more like Carol at least.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to Englishcrumpet)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 1:15:00 PM   
PrincessDonna11


Posts: 289
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline 		OK I can see the emotional thing that a sub may feel they want to buck up to a Dom but I find that is usually because the Dom is not showing enough topping in the relationship. I find that alligator clips at the first interiewseems to quell that.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 3:59:41 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Can't say that i ever wanted to fight with my late dom - i'm not wired to fight, and he wasn't wired to accept it. And as unbelievable as it sounds , in five years we never had a fight. The closest thing i ever felt to a need to fight was getting pissed off at having to go grocery shopping after working all day.

Actually, if i want to fight, then there is something seriously wrong. I can go to quite extraordinary lengths not to fight, as my ex would tell you - i put up with way more crap than anyone should.

My issue wasn't my submissiveness, but my taste in men - and i've pretty much taken care of that.


(in reply to PrincessDonna11)
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RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 4:05:18 PM   
Soyokaze


Posts: 390
Joined: 4/1/2007
Status: offline 		I'm generally ultra-non-aggressive if I'm trying to pick a fight it's strictly playful... or I'm in the bowels of a red nightmare and chances are the relationship won't last : p

_____________________________

"When I was a little kid, I wish the first word I ever said was 'quote' so right before I died I could say 'end quote'" -Steven Wright

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 6:34:57 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		If you are asking whether to test limits or not, I can share this perspective. Please imagine that all creatures (like people) are equally important but not equally compatible. Some people want to swim with sharks, some want the beauty and tranquility of guppies. If you are both sharks or both guppies, then testing should not be destructive. It should be educational. If you are not both the same, then testing limits will result in damage to one of you or the relationship.

I can tell you that I have had more than one slave that fought to test the limits in the beginning. So that also answers your question. They tested me and learned from it. It was lesson they well remembered and made for a better and smoother relationship with those that were compatible from the guppy/shark perspective. For others, it brought out the incompatibilities quickly to the surface and they were fixed or the relationships ended.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 5/14/2012 6:36:35 PM >

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

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RE: Need to fight? - 5/14/2012 7:15:47 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BurntKitty

If a relationship is begun with a deliberate conflict, it's doomed from the start.

~Teh wisdom of teh kitteh~


And no one would have been the winner in that scenario.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Need to fight? - 5/15/2012 11:14:47 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
Wise words. Once again, I aspire to be more like you guys. Well, more like Carol at least.

My early marriage to Carol taught me a lot about "fighting" in relationships. I'd always been more the "team sport" orientation anyway. In my head I use doubles tennis versus singles tennis as an example. I see myself as playing doubles tennis so swatting the ball AT my partner is a guaranteed losing move. There are no points to be gained on my side of the net... just points to lose. That doesn't mean that Carol and I don't have differences of opinion. It just means that "fighting" over them isn't a viable strategy for resolution. I see the word "mindfulness" used on these boards regularly. For Carol and I, the thing that we both work hard to be mindful of is that we are on the same team. Any viewpoint which doesn't look like that is a mistaken viewpoint.

But my early marriage with Carol was a stunner. I'd never encountered the concept of "submissive" and I'd never had a partner who simply would not argue with me in most cases. It became pretty clear in the first year of our marriage that if I argued with her I would win... every single time. Any person interested in excellence would understand that's a highly undesirable outcome if for no other reason than at least some of the time she had to be right which means as a couple we were automatically wrong in those times. So quickly I started gleaning from her what her viewpoint was, then I would arrange all her arguments for her, then I'd verbalize them. If she nodded telling me I had it mostly right, then I'd argue against that back and forth with myself until I'd reached answer. In essence, I hold up her side of the argument for her LOL.

One way of looking at our whole "dynamic" is that we simply codified all of that. It's pretty much exactly what I do now. I look at both sides of the question and try to understand where "optimal happiness" lies then I make the call. The only real difference nowadays is that it's all up on the table because we understand it better.

PS: Thanks for the compliment

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Need to fight? - 5/15/2012 12:31:10 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		That's an interesting way of doing things.

For us we're both generally on the same page with most things anyway, so there's very rarely much scope for conflict in that respect. There are also some areas in which he defers to me in decision making, knowing I have done the research (for example, we recently became parents and I do all the medical appointments etc, so he generally looks to me in this sense). I will check with him of course. When he makes the final decision, that's that and I accept it. We generally talk things through and I can express my opinions and know they will be accounted for in his decision.

The thing is, when I feel the urge to 'fight' it is usually something ridiculously trivial. In reality, I'm not fighting with him, I'm fighting with myself and a little voice inside me that says 'this is not how you were raised'. I'm getting better but I haven't cracked it yet.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Need to fight? - 5/15/2012 12:49:12 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not submissive.


At least not for everyone. Oh sure I am submissive when in a relationship and I am prone to making people comfortable and easing them in, but that is not submissive. At least not by the standards set by most people in this place.


What makes me "not submissive" is that unlike what I see here on CM or Fet is that I will feel out a guy to see if I CAN submit to him. I fight it. Not physically of course, but mentally, I test them. I want to see how they react to different situations before I let my guard down so that I want to submit to them.


When ever I read a thread in the forums that spout that philosophy of "I wouldn't be with him if I had to test him.", I wonder how they got to that spot right off the bat. Meeting a new man (or woman), did they immediately submit? Did they converse first? Spend a long time chatting prior to meeting so that when they met, they KNEW? Or, was it something that hit them like a flash upon meeting and from then on in they aspired toward the perfect state of submitting to his will?


I am not submissive if that is the case because I need to know that the person I commit to is someone to whom I will submit; and for me to know that I actually have to prove to myself he can inspire it from me. I would not call myself a doubting tomas exactly, but having been on this earth longer than 5 decades I do know that not all that glitters is gold, not all men are dominant, not all commands are worth following, and sometimes those that want to be in charge are simply not capable of doing so.


And because of that, I am not submissive until I am, and then it is a done deal.



< Message edited by Missokyst -- 5/15/2012 12:50:28 PM >

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to Bls419)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Need to fight? - 5/15/2012 6:36:12 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		With Master, I think I submitted to him the moment I met him face to face in real life. He just had that air about him, the way he walked, the way he talked, full of confidence, knew exactly who he is, took charge from the moment he opened the door for me when we both arrived at the coffee shop at the same time, that made me want to just kneel down in front of him the moment I saw him. And having talked to him for a long long time through emails, I got to know him pretty well. I just never felt any kind of need to test him because he simply never gave me a reason to. I never doubt him and he's never broken his word on anything.

For me personally, if I didn't feel that dominance and leadership abilities in him within the first 5 minutes, I doubt I would have stayed past the coffee. I never have in the past either no matter how nice they may have seemed. For me it just comes across in who you are and your personality.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Need to fight? - 5/15/2012 11:24:57 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

When ever I read a thread in the forums that spout that philosophy of "I wouldn't be with him if I had to test him.", I wonder how they got to that spot right off the bat. Meeting a new man (or woman), did they immediately submit? Did they converse first? Spend a long time chatting prior to meeting so that when they met, they KNEW? Or, was it something that hit them like a flash upon meeting and from then on in they aspired toward the perfect state of submitting to his will?


This is a great question.

I didn't get to that spot right off the bat. Our relationship was verrrrrry slow in its development. We spent time together. We watched each other. We observed. We talked a lot. We had fun together. It was my perspective that, in everything he did (both related to me and unrelated to me), he was showing me who he was. And then I could decide along the way if that's the person I wanted to be in a relationship with, and submit to. It wasn't a one-time decision for me, it was upwards of a year or so for me to weigh "who he was showing me he was" against whether that would work for me.

And, in turn, I was showing him who I was. My submission to him developed very slowly, and he summoned it very slowly. Neither of us were in a hurry, and it was important to both of us to be in a relationship that was healthy for us.

As for a "perfect state of submitting to his will" - well it's going to be three years next week, and I still haven't reached it. Not sure I'll ever reach "perfect" but then that's not my goal, either.



_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Need to fight? - 5/16/2012 3:22:24 AM   
RaspberryLemon


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst
When ever I read a thread in the forums that spout that philosophy of "I wouldn't be with him if I had to test him.", I wonder how they got to that spot right off the bat. Meeting a new man (or woman), did they immediately submit? Did they converse first? Spend a long time chatting prior to meeting so that when they met, they KNEW? Or, was it something that hit them like a flash upon meeting and from then on in they aspired toward the perfect state of submitting to his will?


Hmm, how to answer this...

I have always been a generally good judge of character. It doesn't take much interaction with someone to get a good idea of who they are.

When I first met my Master, once I had assembled that quick impression of his person in my mind, I pretty much automatically felt compelled to submit to him. He just inspired it in me. I never felt like I needed to test him to be sure I knew he was who I thought he was, because he just...was. It was obvious through his behavior, actions, speech, interaction with others, etc.

But, as I said in my first post in this thread, I didn't initially completely give in to my inclination to defer to him. This wasn't me testing him at all, it was me internally adjusting to accepting submission to someone. It was what I wanted, but it felt weird to want it and so I stubbornly resisted at first--even though the resistance failed and my inclination to follow him won over time and time again. Having my resistance so utterly crushed made me feel indignant and feisty, but good. Really good. I realized that I thrived on his overpowering energy and my surrender to it. Over time I got to know him better, and it became apparent that my original feelings about him were accurate. It was this process of assessing who he was and getting to know him more intimately, plus my eventual acceptance of my inclination to submit to him, that led me to my commitment of subservience and obedience to him.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Need to fight? - 5/16/2012 7:46:48 AM   
littlekitten1


Posts: 160
Status: offline 		The dom Im currently considering likes feistiness and encourages it... So I challenge him. I can usually resist and be disobedient for a while. But I give in if I feel im taking things too far. The most hurtful thing for me would be to be a disappointment. So I guess as a type of play I do 'fight' ... But I wouldn't purposely be super-difficult and annoying. In the end, even the most resilient doms would get tired of that, also It's something would tire me out as well.

But I guess I did fight him in the start. Or more like... I was fighting my own desires because I got scared at the sheer amount of emotions he was capable of evoking in me. But eventually I accepted it and settled in

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Need to fight? - 5/16/2012 8:27:42 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have met quite a few men who I felt that desire to kneel.. at that moment. And some even for longer time. But for me, I never saw it as something that would continue over time. Not even for those two men who remain in my head as "my dominant". I take my time getting to know someone. Those tests.. that some consider fighting, are really me, evaluating whether or not this person is going to maintain that position in my head for the long haul.
I would not have decided that on any of the others who gave me that feeling to kneel on first meet.
I DO trust my judgement. I choose very well. But it is in my personality to keep only a few close. I could not even imagine being with someone unless I had a chance to weigh them over time.
I don't believe in love at first sight, or committment at first meet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

When ever I read a thread in the forums that spout that philosophy of "I wouldn't be with him if I had to test him.", I wonder how they got to that spot right off the bat. Meeting a new man (or woman), did they immediately submit? Did they converse first? Spend a long time chatting prior to meeting so that when they met, they KNEW? Or, was it something that hit them like a flash upon meeting and from then on in they aspired toward the perfect state of submitting to his will?


This is a great question.

I didn't get to that spot right off the bat. Our relationship was verrrrrry slow in its development. We spent time together. We watched each other. We observed. We talked a lot. We had fun together. It was my perspective that, in everything he did (both related to me and unrelated to me), he was showing me who he was. And then I could decide along the way if that's the person I wanted to be in a relationship with, and submit to. It wasn't a one-time decision for me, it was upwards of a year or so for me to weigh "who he was showing me he was" against whether that would work for me.

And, in turn, I was showing him who I was. My submission to him developed very slowly, and he summoned it very slowly. Neither of us were in a hurry, and it was important to both of us to be in a relationship that was healthy for us.

As for a "perfect state of submitting to his will" - well it's going to be three years next week, and I still haven't reached it. Not sure I'll ever reach "perfect" but then that's not my goal, either.





_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Need to fight? - 5/16/2012 10:09:26 AM   
kittycake


Posts: 42
Joined: 3/1/2012
Status: offline 		It would never occur to me to try to fight him in the relationship. I've already accepted him as my dominant, so why would I fight? Now, I have been known to have rough days where finding that submissive place is harder for me, because my natural impulse is to snap at him. We solve this by simply having some--for us, highly ritualized--discussion time that reinforces our roles and the love that's between us.

Take downs are a whole 'nother story. When both of us are in playful, silly moods, I will playfully do bratty things in order to get a reaction. Stealing his towel while he's in the shower so he has to come take it from me, pants him in the kitchen and then run giggling for the bedroom, things of that nature...however, if ever what I've done crosses a line or he's not in that mood, he let's me know and the bratty behavior is over.

_____________________________

All my soul follows you, love encircles you and I live in being yours. -- Robert Browning


His kitten

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Need to fight? - 5/16/2012 12:09:33 PM   
caelestis


Posts: 195
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline 		Nope, never. By the point I'm willing to call someone Master, we've already established through various discussions/scenes/etc who is the one in charge. I see it like this: If I feel like I need to fight them, they probably are not for me.

_____________________________

"We are a fountain of shimmering contradictions, most of us. Beautiful in the concept, if we're lucky, but frequently tedious or regrettable as we flesh ourselves out."
— Gregory Maguire



(in reply to Bls419)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Need to fight? - 5/17/2012 4:40:50 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I got this urge to replay the whole unwilling slave scenario over and over again and being forced to serve and submit, and never get sick of it. I do like the struggle, and the fights and the "humiliation and punishments" to keep me in line.
Doesn't work with doms who just wants total voluntary obedience at all times though.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 40
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